I can see what you’re saying here, basically what I see is that it boils down to the idea that while other defensive ults still can be knocked away in some fashion to get a kill, Res was instant. That is again why I said why the only thing she needed was a hair slower Res - it would have given players just a bit more time to counter her without it being instant cast (or this super slow self stun garbage she has going on now) without ruining her completely. I would also be fine with her ult charge being slower so that it’s less of an advantage to the team, but I think making it charge too slowly could risk urging Mercy players to be even more conservatives waiting for their clutch Res of the game and so that can be a bit problematic as well.
Ultimately though I think it doesn’t make sense why people act like Mercy shouldn’t be able to have sway over the course of the game when other heroes do. Why should she not be able to do something that kills or saves a bunch of people when everyone else in the game gets a free pass to do just that? It makes no logical sense. There are plenty of ults that have no ‘counterplay’, so the idea that hers needs it is kind of a logical fallacy in and of itself, even if I do agree with you that it needed to be a touch more balanced. But that’s just it, it only needed a touch, not a shotgun blast to the face.
Mercy was the character that was like: “Ok, you just wasted EMP, Blade, and Grav on my team, and didn’t even care for me? Then here, take this!” and that was it. She was and STILL IS a priority target, but she was built to highlight the mistakes of the enemy team and repair some of hers as well. I find it fair if you got a 5 man rez in your face, and Mercy was near the corner, healing every now and then. Like HOW, WHY. How are you going to ignore such a character, when you know she is going to erase all of this? Why are you just going straight for the kill, instead of the priority target? If you did this in the past, you asked for a 3 man res or 5 man res in the face, really.
This is the disconnect between us. Something has to happen enough for the expectations related to it to change. With rez, it absolutely did happen often enough that that’s exactly what happened. A couple of people saying something dumb about how to use Transcendence isn’t enough to massively shape its usage. It’s not comparable at all. I dealt with the hide and rez expectations EVERY game. So did a lot of people. Blizzard agreed and that’s why the change was made.
I’m against it coming back because I know it’ll be abused again. I’m most in favor of removing rez from the game. If it has to be replaced with anything, it should be something that helps her keep her team alive instead of reversing mistakes.
We can’t officially measure it. We can only give our personal experiences on the matter. For you it was uncommon for people to tell Zen’s to just wait until the enemy team ults to ult. For me it was very common.
On the contrary, we won’t know that because you can’t measure it. We can only give our personal experiences. Same thing applies to mass Resurrect. No one can measure how common it was. They can only give their own experience. The one thing disproving ”Hide n Res” being common however is the fact that the average resses back then is 6.
It is.
And I dealt with the Zen expectation almost every game…
Blizzard can’t prove how common both strategies are. They played it off as an issue with the ultimate rather than the people.
No, they didn’t. They stated that it wasn’t being used in the way that it was intended and that’s why it was being changed. They don’t have to prove it or measure it; It’s their game. They heard about it and/or experienced it often enough that they knew it to be a pervasive problem. Those decisions aren’t made based on anecdotal evidence, which is all that exists with the Zenyatta example.
You’re right. Hide and rez wasn’t very successful, but it was still the expectation. If it was a good strategy, the expectation would’ve made sense, at least, but it didn’t. That’s why it was changed.
They said in the developer video that the strategy was encouraged by the design of the ultimate… Never did they say that it was player base issue.
And that’s where the problem starts. If they don’t have to measure it, Zen’s ultimate can be removed.
Then there’s the rest of the world telling them that it wasn’t as common as people play it out to be…
Both strategies are bad and both were not encouraged by the ultimate itself. If mass Resurrect truly was reworked because people played her bad, Zen should be reworked as well. That is not the case however.
An issue is that the other supports didn’t command that kind of attention.
You think Zen has a transcendence? Well, you could kill him before using your ult, or you could just pressure him enough to try to save himself with it. Or you could force it out with a grav and biotic nade him to cancel it out.
Lucio has sound barrier? You could kill him before using your ult, or you could just delay an EMP to make his ult completely wasted without having to lose the effect of the ult he tried to counter. Or you could bait him into ulting and just hang back for a few seconds to let the shields drain (similar to what you might do against molten core).
Mercy has rez? You’d better kill her, but make sure you kill her late enough that she doesn’t get back to the fight right in time for you to finish killing everyone else.
There were zero dynamics around rez. I mean, there were zero dynamics before invulnerability too, but it was made okay by the fact that she got melted all the time.
People did have some novel ideas. One person suggested allowing reaper’s soul eating to prevent the character being resurrected by Mercy. While this may have helped, it’s pretty niche as a counterplay strategy. Most of the general purpose attempts to resolve this (like not having res work through enemy barriers) would probably ruin the ultimate.
Exactly - that’s because getting a 5 man res was really rare. Most matches you’d get a few 2-3 man resses, it was exceedingly rare that I got a 4 man res. I think I managed 2 5 mans in my entire game career with her back when she had the ability, total, and she was my main till they changed her. A lot of games I’d even res a single person as a tempo res just so we’d be up a player for a fight, which is again why the average resses per game was 6.
The Reaper soul thing is a horrible idea in my opinion. If that came back, it would make Reaper a must pick when Mercy is picked as well. And a character like Reaper being a must pick will be way more unhealthy for the game. Same with some of Sombra/Ana ideas. It would develop a new meta, of Ana, Mercy, Reaper and Sombra. Honestly, her 2016 state was the most balanced. And now, with Brigitte, McCree, Hammond, and Sombra being somewhat relevant, now counters could be added, and LOS would fix the problem that Mercy can res behind walls. Imagine is Soldier could kill behind walls. Why should Mercy be allowed to do it? Seems unfair. And for Valk… well, on E, I think it should have a 5-second duration, 15 seconds of cooldown(it begins when Valkyrie ended) and maybe have it only attached to 3 teammates, as Valkyrie is underpowered for an ultimate right now, but imagine how it would be if it was an ability, in this current form. So, to summarize this:
Resurrect as ult- LOS, needs more ult charge, half of invulnerability, a cast time of half of second or 1 second.
Valkyrie on E- 5 seconds duration, 15 seconds CD, only affects 3 allies, Mercy can fly. What do you guys think? I think it actually makes her pretty solid, while also giving her some weaknesses, from other characters, or the meta itself.
I am sorry I had to be that guy XD