I mean, honestly, that seems like it would be a far larger nerf than the healing thing.
Mitrovarr - Maybe it would, but it would feel much better I think and would be a huge step towards ending the Mercy controversy.
Kazper - One more point regarding potential healing. If 25% of Mercy’s healing is tied up in her valk chain beam, then her healing numbers should have gone down by a good chunk when Valk’s duration was cut from 20 seconds to 15 seconds. I checked. It didn’t change at all.
We have numbers telling us exactly how much damage Mercy is adding onto her teammates through damage boost, and… well… let’s just say that we would need add that to her own damage output and then triple that number to come close to the hero with the second worst damage output in the game: Ana.
As for Resurrect, I already said this:
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Agreed. Ana should be the main healer that brings the most utility. Res on cooldown is infringing on her domain and should be changed. Mercy’s thing is healing and should be left alone.
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… you just click gm>primary
Potential in one valk is not a model of reality. Having 3-5 valks per game with that kind of potential is.
Yet, you don’t. You know mercy’s overall average across all elo’s. Given the general consensus among most mercy mains on this forum all think Valk is a useless ult, we can determine pretty easily the average mercy player doesn’t realize how powerful valk really is.
Gm is the what, top 4%. diamond is anywhere between 25 to 15%. The average isn’t going to change drastically. You and I had this discussion in another thread already.
Oh, my bad… Now I just feel silly. I always selected the hero to see their specific stats. You can’t see Mercy’s number of revived players or Ana’s number of targets slept without clicking on the hero to reveal their specific stats.
Oh, but we do.
And we know that said number hasn’t deviated more than 400 points from Mercy’s pre-rework average.
Or maybe it’s actually a pretty garbage ultimate. I was a GM Mercy main before I stopped playing and… well, I hold that opinion too.
<1%.
Diamond is 10% of the playerbase.
We did?
Oh hey, you’re right. I haven’t looked at that in awhile, my apologies.
Glad to have helped, hopefully it helps you get more more accurate statistics to go off of.
Yet you admit above average is only like 10% of the player base and admit you don’t know the statistics for elo break down.
I would argue this statement is based on biased, but you’re not wrong. Compared to something as flashy as mass rez it looks terrible. With that being said, an ultimate that makes everything a hero is already the best at even better shouldn’t be scoffed at. It took how many nerfs before owl pro’s could reliably kill mercy while in valk.
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yeah but the point they’re making i think is that the dev’s are nerfing the wrong part of her kit. like you said she’ll survive again because the problem isn’t her hps, it’s rez. (which the devs seem to be pushing to make it work despite it not working nearly a year after the rework. to the point that they’re nerfing her hps simply to make rez work which no one likes [enemies don’t like their kills being rezzed and mercy player’s dont like standing still for ~2 seconds])
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Using the potential total to see what kind of power valk really has on Mercy’s healing average is not the same as the potential healing of a hero overall. When you put that potential to practice, sure there will be deviations like somebody will be full and not add to the healing stat, you might only heal one person instead of 3, ect. With that being said, the average mercy gets valk 3-5 times a game.
The potential healing of Mercy in one Valk on only half her team is basically the number you think is so far fetched. With deviations included and valk 3-5 times a game, it’s pretty easy to see just how much chain heals affects mercy’s healing output.
No, because you’re ignoring what I said. She didn’t have utility before her rework.
Now that she does, they could have clipped any part of her they wanted. They stopped trying to pursue her rez, and took a different route, which was her healing.
Because her pickrates are still trashing the other mains healers.
This does not mean that they are weak. No matter what, if you compare any healer against Mercy, they will seem UP because they aren’t Mercy.
They don’t have her consistent healing.
They don’t have her utility.
They don’t have her mobility.
Now here’s a fact, I’m sick of current Mercy too. I want her reverted and/or reworked again, however I’m not praying for a rainy day on the moon. I’m grounded in reality and I’m sick of seeing baseless arguments. I’m sick of seeing the Mercy mains cry out about small nerfs that does nothing to hurt Mercy’s power or potential.
You can skew data 6 ways from Sunday, but I don’t care because reality doesn’t care. Mercy is still too good despite going on 11 nerfs.
Titanium: I disagree with you that Valkyrie is a garbage ultimate. I think it’s pretty good and well in keeping with her character.
Kazper: Yes, that’s the number that I think is far fetched. I think that the chain beams in an average valkyrie heal for far less than the potential number you posted. Yes, there are 3-5 valkyries a game, so it’s contribution should be on average 4*average Valk healing. But I think that potential number you posted almost never happens, and the average Valk is much lower. It certainly is in my experience.
Now I could be wrong, but I don’t think I am. Like I said, if you have good data here I’d be happy to see it. My reasons for thinking this are that the post rework healing numbers did not jump up anywhere on the order of 33%, and that the Valkyrie duration nerf didn’t affect her healing numbers at all. Cutting 25% duration off of something you claim is such a large part of her healing should have shown up. All in all, I think you are not correct in thinking that it’s easy to see that Valk’s chain beams are responsible for large parts of Mercy’s healing.
PharHentoi: The damage boost was there pre-rework, so I’m assuming you mean res. Her healing hasn’t changed drastically since the rework, and she’s currently resurrecting about the same number of people per game (a bit lower now), so I’m assuming you are referring to how tempo res differs from mass res as utility. Now this is a fair point, since it seems to have disrupted the game quite a bit. That’s why it’s the Mercy component that should be addressed. It was never the healing, which has remained constant.
My arguments are not baseless, and the data is not skewed in any way. It’s based off of a simple question - how much hp swing does a character have in a game? It’s not a specious question. It actually points to how much the character is contributing in reality. You can make all the models you want (the healing/mobility/utility model), and make claims about them (like that she has the best utility), but the numbers don’t lie.
Mercy’s utility has the advantage of being easily quantified. Damage boosted. Life brought back through resurrection. When those numbers are added together with her healing, it’s straight in the middle of the pack. And that’s not factoring things I couldn’t get numbers for that other characters have. The mobility and consistency are already factored in. Mobile consistent heroes heal for more. That’s the whole point of the mobility and the consistency.
The healing numbers don’t point to a nerf. The win rates don’t point to a nerf (and didn’t even when she wasn’t played as much). There is only one number that does point to a nerf - pick rate. Now pick rate might justify a nerf, but no one knows for sure what inflated it. If you want to nerf, it’s important to pick the right one so that we won’t be here again in a few months.
The problem is probably res. It’s what made her pick rates soar to begin with. Res needs to be taken off of a 30 second cooldown. I don’t think this requires a revert. I offered a solution in my OP, and people have offered others that don’t involve reverts.
Finally - it’s not a small nerf. It’s a flat 17% nerf to her primary function. That’s as big as nerfs get.
Not to be rude here, but what does your experience really mean? Going off of your profile it looks like you only play quick play, and going by your overbuff you’re not in a high mmr match rating in quick play either. Team coordination is little to non existent and you’re more or less healing 4-5 dps a game without tanks. An average mercy would heal more in a standard 2-2-2 comp in competitive. Your personal experience is far from a reflection of the average player, let along the top 10% who utilize valk to it’s fullest. In games you’re playing there’s probably little chance of people grouping up for you to chain more than one person at a time.
I’ve broken down the basic logic for you step by step, you refuse to acknowledge it due to personal experience.
Even titanium can’t confirm this to be false considering they didn’t know how to measure healing per elo. Relying so heavily on their data that’s already been proven to be skewed is nothing short of disingenuous.
Valk can heal up to 5 people at once. 5 people times 60hps for 15 seconds is 4500 healing in one Valk. If you use Valk to heal only 2 people at once, times 60hps for 15 seconds, that’s 1800 healing in one valk. This is an extra 900 healing to mercy’s average than she would normally have. When Someone is full so you bounce around and continue healing for the full duration on somebody else, lets call it 700 more healing on average than she usually does. 700 healing jumps up too 2800 healing with 4 valks in a game, and this is only focusing on healing two people, the bare minimum of valk only healing 2 people at a time.
Again, the logic is laid out for you, Mercy players who know the value of Valk take full advantage of it and they get anywhere from 13-15k a game, even reaching stupidly high healing like 18k per game sometimes. The majority of mercy players think Valk is useless and pop it to survive a flanker and/or fly back to their team at spawn because they all died, healing nobody for that full duration.
Actually i’ve never once made this claim. What I did say was Mercy’s healing used to be close to Ana’s in high elo’s, and now Mercy heals an insane amount more on average comparatively since her rework. Given high elo is 10% of the population you wouldn’t see huge deviations from the average across all elo’s.
Basically you just explained whats wrong with her…
Look…i dont think there is a reason to switch te mercy, when the enemy team has one…what will happen if you dont? you loose? and? ana is worse than her yes, but if you are for example plat ana, you will outperform bronze/silver mercys…so not playing mercy maybe puts you one league lower, but mercys wont outperform you, since you would belong to plat, and a gold mercy is only gold…he definetly dosent belong to plat.
It is just silly to play a hero that is currently opaf, and boring, especially when you dont want to.
For example i am in gold with ana, because i already can outheal gold mercys most of the time…so i am not putting my team in disadvantage at all. At least i dont think so, but yesterday a duo asked me to switch from ana to mercy, because it is somehow instaloss playing with her in gold, even if i have 57% winrate with her this season solo q. My profile is public, they could have checked it…yet they blamed me before the match even started!!! Thas why mercy is a cancer to this game in her current state.
And you basically said, well i dont want to play seriously sometimes, i dont want to try hard…thank god blizzard made mercy, and i can be effective with her even without taking the game seriously…how f…d up having a hero like that in the game?
That’s the point; why bother shooting at the Mercy when her team is far easier to kill? 60 health/second (soon to be 50 health/second) isn’t going to sustain a team through focus fire, let alone ultimates.
That’s why her healing averages have remained roughly the same, and for a while, lower than pre-rework; before, she had an ultimate that allowed members of her team to come back into the fight, providing her more opportunities for healing. If used to revive 4+ players, it practically doubled the amount of healing she dealt in that engagement, as the teams effectively fought two fights.
Valkyrie’s healing is spread out and impotent. A decent Mercy would perform about the same in keeping the team alive with or without Valkyrie. The only real bonus Valkyrie provides in regards to healing is mitigation of stray fire, and that isn’t a huge deal in the first place. Focus fire cuts through that rate of healing like butter (especially in high tiers), and the team gets wiped regardless. This time, there isn’t a Resurrect to teammates back from that and bump up Mercy’s healing numbers.
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Thats the way it’s supposed to be. Healing is supposed to help you win a fight, not stop a fight from being winnable.
You realize for this theory of yours to be true, that would mean mercy heals a crazy amount now compared to what she used to.
If Mercy’s average healing was 11-12k pre-rework because she brought people back with mass rez and continued to heal them through extended team fights, that would mean Mercy’s current amount of healing rivals that without the need for extended team fights and mass res, while also averaging 13k in gm and has more ress’ than before with it on e.
And you’re still somehow arguing she doesn’t heal more now.
This is simply not true.
Again, healing is supposed to help win a fight, not stop fights from being winnable. That’s the way it should be. Also this statement is blatantly false. 60hps times 5 team mates over 15 seconds is 4500 healing mercy can potentially do with one valk. That’s 3600 more than she would do without valk. These are of course optimal conditions but the point stands.
And yet she still pulls in comparable healing numbers, and better averages in higher elo’s now without it.
But we are at the point where the healing is so pathetic that it is more effective to shoot the other players rather than the source of the ultimate. Do you not see the problem with this?
Let’s add some perspective. What if Soldier:76’s ultimate were so weak that it is more worth shooting at his teammates rather than him?
Sure, it’s supposed to help the team win a fight… but does it really do that? A Graviton Surge into a team using Valkyrie would end exactly the same as a Graviton Surge into a team that never used Valkyrie.
It’s the same amount of healing. The source just changed. It would mean Valkyrie at best doubles the healing output of Mercy for a fight, indicated by the numbers.
Which means that Valkyrie only compensated for the drop in healing that would have occurred from Mass-rez.
Only 13k? Pfft. That’s nothing. 14k with Mercy 1.x was a breeze in GM.
I might note that every hero’s stats have always been higher in GM; that’s why those players are in GM. If they couldn’t crank out better stats, they probably aren’t performing well, and thus would fall out of GM.
Want an example? Look at every hero’s winrate in Bronze. Now look at every hero’s winrate in GM. Big difference.
Actually, that is incorrect. The average number of Resurrects now resembles the average number of Resurrects from Mercy’s pre-rework versions, although the statistics don’t tell the full story with Resurrect. Its numerical value doesn’t accurately reflect its realistic value.
Because she doesn’t. Look at the averages. The source of said healing may differ, but her healing has not changed.
See the next part you quoted:
Trash damage can wait. That one ally that is getting focused is the only target that actually needs that healing, and Valkyrie kind of… doesn’t help that at all.
See what I said above.
Which has always been the case.
I’d argue the opposite. Healing is so efficant that sustained dps cant reliably burst through it and if they do, it’s just getting ressed up leading to nothing but a choke fight. So now what we’re seeing is one shot mechanics to burst through the healing and being able to take out multiple targets quickly before they get ressed.
Is healing alone a problem? No, of course not. Healing can be burst through, there’s no question about it. With that being said, healing and barriers and armor have all put us in this stale one shot mechanic meta.
Who said Valk was supposed to be the counter to graviton surge? Oh no, valk doesn’t heal as much as zen’s ult so it’s automatically bad? That’s not how any of this works. If you use valk offensively you got 5 people on your team all doing 15% more damage. If you use valk defensively, you got 5 people regening 60… well now 50hps.
Now we’re finally getting somewhere. Yes I completely agree with you. And that’s the average Mercy player across all elo’s. Now is it really so far fetched that people who utilize this new ability are healing for insane amounts that shouldn’t be possible in a game. 15k, 16k, sometimes 18k. Yes this was always possible with long games. It’s not just happening in long games anymore though.
average, across all elo’s.
Her average. You can cut the smart act. Mercy’s average in gm pre rework never passed 12k. Yes you cna heal more than 13k in a game, congrats, with Mercy you can easily heal 15k a game. That doesn’t mean your average is going to be 13k
Don’t even. Every pro player and streamer has come out saying she ress’ more now. The average across all elo’s is 6 people, which you’re inevitably going to argue. A good majority are pulling 7-9. Mercy’s used to build mass res once or twice a game and was lucky to get off 3-4 man res’. Even when a good portion of players were abusing mercy’s sr gain with mass rez.
Average across elo’s. I keep saying this and at this point i’m starting to think you’re just willfully ignoring it.
Why should it? It’s not supposed to, it’s not a burst heal. Valk not being able to do one thing doesn’t take away from the thing it actually does.
Simply not true, you’re still taking facts from average across all elo’s and applying it to elo’s who specifically play to optimize themselves. You’re not going to see a diamond mercy pop valk for the sole purpose of flying back to spawn to regroup with the team.
Kazper: I’m not basing my conclusions off of my own experience, I’m basing them off the numbers. I am however using my own experience as a baseline to judge whether or not what you say sounds plausible. Then I check the numbers.
Regarding your argument - you seem to think that it’s self evident and that I’m being obtuse. I don’t think this is so. I’m reading your arguments and thinking about them, but I just don’t find them as convincing as you think they are.
You did make the claim that Mercy’s chain Valk beams are responsible for a good chunk of her healing:
In context, you claimed that this is what allowed her to go from being just above Ana to where she is now. You seem to be basing this off of potential healing numbers together with the claim that these numbers should be realistic in high play. I don’t find this argument convincing, despite how self evident you believe it to be.
Here are several reasons why: you originally pointed to a 2.7k/valk number as a reasonable number. Let’s take a lower number for the average, say 2. The average Mercy in GM heals on the order of 13K and gets 4 valks a game. That means that Valk should account for 8k healing a game. That leaves barely enough to even charge the Valks, and would imply that old Mercy was healing 5k a game. Clearly the actual number is MUCH lower. The 700 you put in your current post sounds closer to reality to me, but again - one has to see if the data bears this out. And it seems like it doesn’t.
As Titanium pointed out, Mercy’s healing numbers didn’t change much post rework. You are hedging your statement now by claiming it’s only in high elos, but Mercy’s healing numbers don’t change drastically from platinum through GM (they range from 12k - 13k, and dip to 11 in gold). The numbers in GM also didn’t dip when Valk’s duration was shortened. This seems to indicate that Valk isn’t responsible for as much healing as you claim it is.
I think Valk is an excellent ult that does a decent amount of healing, but I think you’re overselling its impact.
This is irrelevant to the discussion, but I’d like to clear something up. I am indeed a QP player. I play exclusively with friends who are also tryhard QP players. We usually end up being paired against other 6 stacks of tryhards. We tend to get placed against people whose MMR is in the mid plat - mid diamond range and do fine. We coordinate, we choose good comps, we execute strategies. We communicate through voice chat and take advantage of ultimates. We don’t have 4-5 dps in a game. We do have tanks. My friends who also play comp (again, in the plat-diamond range) say that it’s a very comparable experience. I usually end up healing between 13-15k/10 minutes, and it’s very rare that I am outhealed by the healer on the other side. I have a 60% win rate with her over the course of hundreds of hours. While I don’t claim to be the best Mercy in the world, I do think I’m a pretty decent one and know how she’s played, and I certainly know how to use Valkyrie.
Mercy had 50HPS before. They had buffed it to 60HPS then.
If they can revert this then why not revert the terrible changes and give Mercy something better?
They also reverted Mei’s damage falloff and McCree’s IIRC.
No actually i based that part on real numbers. I used potential numbers to prove a point about how much extra healing valk brings to mercy, which you’re now being willfully ignorant too.
Now this is misrepresenting the argument to create a strawman. I did not say Valk makes up a good portion of mercy’s healing, though talking with Titanium that might actually be true after all. What I did say originally however was that valk has pushed mercy’s average up in GM, where Ana has consistently stayed around 9k and Mercy has now eclipsed her average.
Edit: I’m not saying Ana used to heal more than Mercy or anything, before you assume that. Mercy has pretty much always had a better healing average than ana post nade nerf. What I am saying is the gap has widened particularly in higher elo’s post mercy rework.