what I think is the problem is that tanks don’t have enough skill available for them to “get good”, the skill ceiling of them is not too high, and the positioning part depends a lot on teamplay and not your individual skill.
I don’t think this happens with all tanks, and with some of them you need to be countered by more than 1 enemy team. Of course your team can make up that for that.
I agree with the suggestion that they should make them with less hp and better defensive skills or something to make up for having less hp.
Still, I feel that if we played in a game without swapping, the game could be decided before playing it sometimes.
I’m intentionally leaving the details out because they aren’t relevant. I don’t want people to sit there and “wElL AcKShuAllY” this. I want them to engage with the question. This has happened to me before on completely different tanks on a completely different map.
It’s a generalized problem where if you have a specific team comp and they do something to counter you, but it’s the very last moments of the game then they can cheese a team fight to win which can cost you the entire game. And it’s worse if nothing on your team can deal with the swap.
Cheese is using Zarya ult combos or nano blade or such
Swapping characters is an intended strategy and a fundamental aspect to the gameplay. Given that, you’re expected to be able to deal with it in the moments where you’re unable to switch yourself. They give you the tools to deal with it through ultimates, the one thing meant to break teams regardless of the matchup provided the attack connects.
That’s why they punish you by removing your ultimate if you switch characters. You’re trading ult charge for a new set of options, thus changing your angle of approach in exchange for raw breaking power on the initial attack. It’s fair, it’s balanced, the players just need to adapt to changes in enemy team comp properly to win.
If I locked in a Tank and knew they had a matchup that bad, I’d have run into it earlier in the match. If it took them 4+ swaps before they figured out what that matchup was, and it was the sole reason I lost at the end, I’d blame myself at that point. I handled everything else they threw at me, but left that out there like a boss fight weak point?
Real talk, if I was that concerned that I’d be “cheesed out”, and I saw that they needed to jump around that much to figure out what I already knew when I locked the hero in, I’d just tough it out with a more general Tank for the rest of that match. Clearly, in this scenario, I’m better than them if I don’t need to switch the matchup as often, so my only real loss condition is this big glaring weakness I willingly walked into the match with.
Agree to disagree. Swapping mid-match is fine. Swapping in the last like 60 seconds to get a quick team fight win when the other person cannot reasonably swap themselves because of the timing is cheese.
This is why instead of swapping heros everytime you’re at a disadvantage you need to learn how to play your hero into the disadvantage.
When in overtime and the whole team counterswaps you on point C who do you think is going to win?
The player that swaps their hero every time they get countered or the player that has learned to play around those counters on their hero and still win?
Listen, I do play them into the disadvantage until it becomes obvious that it isn’t going to work. I’m actually pretty good against my counters on my main. But there are times when it just isn’t going to work and you need to be flexible.
I do not swap my hero every time I get countered.
The irony here is the OTHER guy is the kind of person who swaps their hero at the drop of a hat. And THEY won. While I don’t swap most of the time and lost. So the question is kinda answered here. The person who swaps all the time wins. At least in this scenario.
I get it man. I’ve been there. I would definitely analyze exactly how that fight fell apart after that one swap and look for ways you might have been able to change your positioning or playstyle to counter it.
But every game is unique and every one plays differently so there is no “one way” to win them all.
If you have to counterswap then you picked the wrong character in the first place, clearly you weren’t well acquainted enough if you insta lose the moment the enemy swaps.
I don’t think it is. If you’re playing a character you’re good at then the enemy counterswapping shouldn’t be an instant loss. You should have experience fighting your counters and you should have an advantage in both ult charge and perk progress.
I was playing Zarya into Reinhardt, we were losing. I swapped to Hog, we won. I am not bad at Zarya just because Reinhardt wins the match up. And that kid was not bad at Reinhardt just because Reinhardt loses the match up. The game is rock, paper, scissors. Could I be better at Zarya? Sure. I literally just started playing her today. Is it easier to simply pick Hog? Obviously.
Ironically he tried Orisa and it did not work because he was bad at Orisa and I am good at Hog. He went back to Reinhardt and did a lot better. Still lost. Because it is Reinhardt. You are right. He picked wrong.
Lol. Yeah, that is why he lost. I made it to my Hog heal major before he got his lame shield bash. It all makes sense.
Interesting you mention hog in a counterswapping thread and say he needs weakened. He is one of the tanks that gets most frequently and effectively counter-swapped.
Play hog and it’s almost guaranteed the other team will switch Ana as soon as a support dies. If that is not enough to stop him the other support will go Zen or Weaver (yes weaver to ruin all hog’s hooks) and DPS will switch Hanzo (hanzo+ana is one of the most underrated but most OP combos against tanks in the game).
Hog still doing Ok? Orisa or Mauga will appear (if Orisa didn’t appear already after 1st tank death).
This is not something that started happening because of hog’s recent buffs - it’s always been the case.
Why would they design 1 hero to completely counter another? It guarantees that hero will be picked whenever the hero they counter is picked. And hog is proof of that. Both Ana abilities counter hog, and everything in Orisa’s kit counters hog (javelin, gold, armour, spin, shield).
They should never have this level of countering from one hero to another or they become tied together - you pick A, they will always pick B (and C). It also means the countered hero has to be made stronger, otherwise they would be unplayable when their counters are picked. This is very unhealthy design. Mauga and Hog are evidence that their counters are too strong as they get balanced around them existing in most games.
You basically described the experience of playing any tank. Win one fight, counters appear.
It’s not hog specific.
That being said, it’s widely regarded that current hog is not that healthy. They don’t really know what to with him, hence another rework is coming.
Right now, he’s just a big DPS with sustainability. Not really a tank. Without the damage buff, he just exists doing very little. With the damage buff he makes the game unenjoyable. (I thought the buff was hilarious tbf)