If you can’t understand that then you clearly haven’t thought about her kit very well.
Most supports like Ana and Zen have their strong utility (Discord/Anti+Sleep) Gated behind low mobility to make them diveable to negate their strong utility
Or low heal to make up for their incredibly high mobility e.g Lucio
For example Ana to use anti actually has to give up her self heal which will almost certainly lead her to die if she’s dove.
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Now kiriko comes into play.
High heal
High damage
High mobility
Cleanse
Invulnerability x2 (Swift gives invul and Cleanse gives invul)
Wall climb to escape (If winston dives you then you wall climb you’re in the clear for 6 seconds)
To RUB IT IN HER ULT IS THE BEST OFFENSIVE ULT IN THE GAME WITH A SMALL HITBOX
Kiriko has all the op features with none of the downsides that other supports have
She has LITERALLY 0 trade offs.
Shes incredibly good at killing Tracer, tracer takes 30 damage from anywhere to some spam damage and now she has to recall or grab a healthpack or otherwise Kiriko can oneshot her
She can also oneshot combo tracer with melee headshot which is incredibly easy because the projectile size is like 3x bigger than Hanzos arrow.
They gave Kiriko too much. Just like how they gave Sojourn too much. And they’re handling both heroes in the wrong way. Kiriko’s numbers feel… fine, I guess? But her kit is overbloated with utility and function, so they should be trying to make her be able to do slightly less things. Instead, they’re tuning back her healing numbers because they want her to be throwing more kunai… that’s… not what needs to be changed…
It’s power creep and it literally all started with Ana. Anti-nade is broken, and because you can’t have a support who just has a ‘lolno,’ button that negates it 1:1 you have to bloat the ability with more, ‘general,’ utility that also counters anti. Which means it needs a longer CD, and ultimately gimps it as a counter to anti. So rather than having a support who reigns in a support with a broken ability you just end up with more broken support abilities none of which really counter each other.
If Kiriko was an immobile support like Ana who only cleansed effects, but shes not shes incredibly survivable with decent heal and a direct counter to Anti with Ultimate clearing effects and invulnerability.
They power crept kiriko so hard I think she completely outshadows Ana.
Fair points about Ana vs. Kiriko in general. My position is simply that when you try to balance something broken by introducing ability-based counter play instead of re-working it you just introduce more broken stuff and it rarely ever fixes the original problem.
Honestly I’d just make Kiriko’s Kunai do around 120DPS sans crits (with normal x2 crits) to make her more viable outside top tiers as something other than a heal botting ult-battery. The only support who should be two-tapping heads is Zen since damage is how he gets value. If necessary adjust her other abilities to compensate.
Kiriko is supposed to be a tricky little rat girl who you should struggle to kill. Lean into that if necessary.
You keep thinking that Kiriko has high healing, but you’re failing to understand that her total healing might be high, but her healing per second is fairly average, if slightly below most other supports.
Take Lucio, for example. You think he has low healing, but it’s actually comparable with all other supports at 75 healing per second. This is higher than Kiriko’s healing per second.
You also think that Kiriko has high damage, but this is false, too. Kiriko’s damage per second is 72. Far lower than the average DPS of most precision-based supports; Zenyatta is higher, Mercy is higher, Baptiste is higher, and Ana is higher. What Kiriko focuses on, is burst damage, which is still not quite as potent as Baptiste’s, Zenyatta’s or even Lucio’s.
As for mobility, this is also untrue. Comparatively, other mobile Supports have better options at lower cooldowns, or with no cooldowns at all. At best, Kiriko’s Swiftstep is useful for crossing through impassable to terrains and reaching allied targets for quick or emergency healing, but otherwise remains strongly limited by cooldown. To make up for this, she’s given wall climb; but wall climb is hardly a strong mobility option compared to others that the mobile Supports have.
It would take some 8 seconds to bring Reinhardt back from critical health, and you seem to think that only Kiriko can do this, which is actually not true. Moira can Fade to his position, and Zenyatta can toss Harmony Orb to his position (or attach it even before then). Sound Barrier has 30 meter affect range, and Mercy can Guardian Angel or Valkyrie over to Reinhardt. Brigitte can toss Repair Packs, and Baptiste can toss Immortality Field and then lob grenades into his general position or directly at him for additional healing (though he make take longer than Kiriko to bring to full health).
Additional, Moira can Coalescence, and Zenyatta can take his improved movement speed with Transcendence and bring Rein back to to full in 2 seconds or less.
Hog would die to focus-fire, even TAB wouldn’t save him.
No, they did not.
Biotic Grenade can be self cleared by over half the Damage-role roster.
Nah, you can just use Zarya for that.
The problem with this statement, is that ability to clear Biotic Grenade has existed since before Ana was ever introduced. And that function has not changed, but only expanded with more new heroes.
This is false. Zenyatta gains value by healing, by utilizing Discord, and by eliminations. Damage is not how he gains value, because everyone can do damage.
I’ve already pointed this other numerous times before, so I’m not going to do it again. If you think that Kiriko is the only choice to countering Biotic Grenade, you’re extremely ignorant about Overwatch 2’s most basic frameworks and operations. I strongly suggest you learn to educate yourselves and try to understand how Overwatch 2 works and what counters Biotic Grenade has been in the game since before Ana was ever released or introduced.
This is all theoretical hypotheticals. You’re manipulating the environment to benefit your narrative. Lucio healing when applied to everyone on his team in his radius, sure. But when does that happen?
Being able to card dump for 130 healing on a burst has a lot more applications than say mercy applying sustained 55 hps.
Napkin mathing this stuff doesn’t apply to how the game is played.
The entirety of your argument follows this pattern tbh. Very selective. Which makes it basically useless outside of a “that’s good to know” sense.
After playing Street Fighter, I have become numbed to grossly exaggerated feet and hands. If you haven’t played it, look at the character models in SF5 sometime. They’re horrifying.
The problem with this statement, is that ability to clear Biotic Grenade has existed since before Ana was ever introduced.
A single-target cleanse, or self-cleanse does not counter an AOE de-buff. You know that as well as I do.
Zenyatta gains value by healing, by utilizing Discord, and by eliminations. Damage is not how he gains value, because everyone can do damage.
Discord amplifies damage. Eliminations are secured with damage. Yes everyone can do damage, but Zen has the highest damage output of any support even without Discord, and the lowest healing. You know that as well as I do.
But you still want to argue that damage is not how Zen players get value because that’s what you do.
It’s all you do on these forums.
You come into random threads, and you write these ponderous essays full of absurd hair-splitting nonsense trying to prove everyone wrong and almost everyone ignores you, and I’ll be joining them after this reply.
Sure, 13 to 26 healing per target is actually pretty similar to what Lucio does here, but Lucio also has Amp and Kiriko has Protection Suzu. Amp will heal more, but Protection Suzu has its own benefits.
With Mercy, it isn’t just 55 healing per second, it’s also 60 healing per second in Valkyrie to the entire team. 55 healing per second is also 55 damage mitigated, and without a cooldown associated with it.
Kiriko dumping healing isn’t all that useful in general sense vs. Mercy’s healing per second. But Kiriko’s Protection Suzu is a really strong application for dumping 50 healing on all nearby targets (or the entire team, which can happen pretty frequently). The brief immunity and debuff clearing is a great bonus; and Mercy really doesn’t have much similar here. Revive brings back one target, but the value of that is variable. Revive a Damage-role hero, is fairly low return unless they can ult and get some support and resources to succeed. Reviving a Tank is high value, as is a Support.
Irrelevant. Facts are facts. They will work in the real game and will be dependent on what you need to do or what events can happen. You can always simulate variables with general frequency of common occurrences and come to conclusions of exactly what will happen. Most of the maps are played enough with hundreds of thousands of hours in the game, at various skill levels. Once you know the general pattern and trends; you can create pretty accurate simulations.
Yeah, there will always outliers, and you can’t always account for that. That’s also irrelevant to the conversation here.
The point is, Kiriko isn’t fundamentally broken anymore than any other Support or Tank. Numbers prove this; game statistics prove this; and situations that can be simulated prove this. Kiriko has advantages, but those advantages aren’t any better or worse that what’s already provided.
In the distant future; as more and more abilities are introduced that debuff targets, heroes like Kiriko can become more valuable and adjustments will have to be made to account for that. Just like Sombra’s ability to silence and shut down targets with EMP with virtually no counterplay demanded that she needed some adjustments. But, at present, the situation isn’t really calling for that. At worst, Sleep Dart, Dynamite, Disruptor Shot, Rip-tire and Blizzard are functionally useless when Kiriko is in play; as there is simply too many counters with low cooldowns, especially with Protection Suzu’s current cooldown. At best, there’s answers to dealing with this and that’s eliminating Kiriko or baiting the cooldown in the same way Tactical Visor can still be effective.
Or you can adjust the cooldowns of Dynamite, Disruptor Shot and Sleep Dart; bulk up Rip-tire (unadvisable) and improve Blizzard.
This is done on purpose to draw attention and watch the fighter’s movements for proper “yomi” and “abare”. Same reasoning for why every fighting game features heroes in “open-stance” or wide-stances.
Newsflash. To be useful, debuffs have to work. If they’re so easily cleared and removed so cheaply and effectively; there would be no point to them.
Fact is, when you have hard limit to the number of heroes of each role on your team, and two or three of them can self-clear the debuff, that’s a lot of power on debuff removal. Again, just bringing Zarya means you’re capable of clear two debuffs on two targets, or more than 1/3rd of the team. Now bring in Tracer, that’s a third removal. Add in Mei and that’s four removals and we haven’t even touched the Supports yet.
Now all that’s left is a question of timing, and maximizing those brief windows to exploit those periods where three heroes can’t remove debuffs from four targets.
He ties Baptiste, but only with Discord does he beat him.
If damage had value; GOATS would not exist. Fact is, for Overwatch, the highest value is eliminations. Damage - of any kind - just doesn’t have the kind of value that players want; otherwise the Damage-role would not be so irrelevant, despite the powerful ultimates they have.
In Zenyatta’s case, there’s no worry about whether or not he lacks value, because he doesn’t. But damage from him isn’t where his value is, it’s in Discord, in his ability to “one-shot combo” targets, in Transcendence and in Harmony orb. That’s his value.
What’s confusing about it? Kiriko currently does somewhere between 70 and 210DPS thanks to her 3x crit damage. This adjustment simply raises the damage floor and makes her less reliant on crit damage. It’s a buff certainly, but if you lower her healing to compensate it just makes her more approachable. Her slow firing rate, and inability to shoot while healing would still tend to reward precision over spam.
