Junkrat direct hits

General Discussion
41

Yeah the ratio would need tuning. Glad we agree on the core idea though.

My issue with a burn mechanic is whether or not it actually brings enough additional impact as well as not addressing the problem of Junk being too rewarding for low ranks.

Burns are also extremely obnoxious and would likely lead to him getting unjustly nerfed in the future purely due to annoyance.

I disagree that 130 is too much. Even in OW1 a good argument can be made that he needs that extra 10 damage to be viable. With this change the 10 damage on top of that comes with a huge trade off and won’t be taken advantage of by players in lower tiers.

I mean, significantly raising his skill floor is the entire point. He’s too easy to play in low ranks while being useless in high ranks. This allows for an increase in the value of his primary but only if you can actually hit the shots. By raising his skill floor it opens up the possibility of additional changes to Junk without risking ruining lower tier matches. Regardless yes the change would need to be tuned to find the right split between aoe and impact damage but the overall goal is to increase the value his primary brings but only for players who can actually aim.

He’s currently D tier at best in OW1 and F tier in OW2. The devs have acknowledged this and the point of this thread is to brainstorm ideas for his primary being net buffed while taking into account what the devs have said about not wanting to increase his projectile speed.

The devs have said that speed increases are off the table because that causes Junk to lose his unique weapon. It just makes him a ground Pharah.

In OW2 mines are significantly weaker due to the extra 10% movement speed. That results in you rarely if ever hitting the maximum damage. Instead of adjusting the mines themselves which only lowers his skill floor this change relies on being able to consistently hit directs. If you’re unable to do that this change is a nerf. It’s a buff that raises his skill floor and ceiling.

Yes but that playstyle is dead in OW2. This is due to there being no chokes on the new maps and the 5v5 format turning 1 massive team fight into lots of little fights spread across the map. Choke spam and zone control just isn’t a thing. Due to this the idea is to further weaken that (dead) playstyle and instead focus on buffing his 1v1/flank capabilities.

That is however off the table, as stated by the devs. It just turns him into a ground Pharah. The weapon being difficult/inconsistent to aim with isn’t necessarily a problem so long as it’s suitably rewarded for successful hits. Higher direct damage does this.

So would I but realistically that won’t happen because low ranks would lose their minds. This attempts to remove low rank concerns entirely as they won’t be able to consistently land enough directs to take advantage of this buff. For them, it’s a nerf. By doing this maybe we can finally get additional changes to make him viable in upper tiers such as a new ability/extra hp that would allow him to more easily get into and survive in his effective range.

2 Likes
42

He needs his old grenade size back at a minimum.

43

except it simply can’t be off the table for a reasonable design.

and no, there’s definitely a point whereby inconsistency can’t be reasonably compensated by higher potential.

e.g. what if sym orbs could OHKO squishies.
how good of a design is that? terrible.
and wouldn’t really be viable either because just because an orb can OHKO means little to the fact that it can’t reasonably hit anything with it in most ranges because it’s so easy to reactively dodge them even unintentionally in so many ranges with how much travel time the projectile has.

which is the flaw in your logic for junkrat considering junkrat doesn’t really have good tools to get in close (like real close) well to assassinate.
and it’s the same core issue as the prev expC devs did for junkrat before.

44

Whether or not I agree isn’t the point of this thread though. If the devs have decided it’s off the table then it’s time to suggest changes within that design. As long as it works I don’t think that it matters if it’s reasonable.

I disagree. In terms of his primary there were 2 issues I ran into during the beta.

  1. Yes, my accuracy dropped by around 5% vs live due to the extra movement speed.
  2. Targets survived his combos with 10-20hp consistently due to the extra movement speed impacting mine fall off.

Of those 2 issues I found the second most problematic. The aiming itself is possible to deal with so long as you’re practiced with the hero.

By adding the extra 20 impact damage it would remove the 2nd problem entirely.

I did say in the OP that I don’t think this change would actually do much to change his viability in OW2. The point is to change his design so that his skill floor and ceiling are significantly raised by only rewarding directs as opposed to missed shots while also rewarding those shots more. From there changes such as additional hp/replace trap with something that fits into his new playstyle could be possible without lower tiers losing their minds. Yes, the point is to nerf him for those who aren’t skilled with the hero so that he can finally be buffed for those that are skilled.

The experimental Junk didn’t work because of the unreasonable fall off damage. Junk can be played at close range but not all the time. This change isn’t really anything like experimental Junk as it keeps his options open. Assuming you can aim, that is.

45

Although with our often disagreements it may not seem like it, I want every hero to be good because I play every hero (I played about 4 junkrat games yesterday actually)

I don’t mind this change because the overall damage increase isn’t massive & is strictly rewarded by direct hits while AoE from spam takes a significant beating

46

That’s just the thing. I agree 100% with something Aqua said in his thread. Spamming is not how to actually play Junk in high ranks and it’s about time his primary was net buffed to reward those who play Junk properly and can aim despite the unwieldly nature of his weapon while also nerfing his spam.

Most Junk mains in high ranks couldn’t care less about his aoe spam. Massively nerf it so bad players can’t crutch it in low tiers/high ranks crutching it when “flexing” to him on individual points and then acting as if the hero has no skill. Maybe then he can finally see additional changes to move him away from only being viable on 2 or 3 points/maps.

47

Well yea, I dont think anyone disagrees with that. Spam is the reason he’s strong in low ranks, you can’t succeed with Junk in high ranks with inaccurate spam damage

No disagreement. The only reason my Junkrat games were so successful yesterday was because of all the direct hits I was getting. I legit backfilled a losing game that my team just lost the 2nd round in & I dominated to victory :laughing: only player on fire, & for good reason

48

You’d be surprised :sweat_smile:

49

You’re right, these are the forums we’re talking about :laughing:

50

Buffing direct hits will turn him into a low skill Tank Buster - which we really can’t afford to have in a 1 Tank environment.

51

Execpt it wouldn’t. Due to the armour changes his damage vs tanks is nothing compared to in OW1.

In OW2 he currently does 84 damage vs tanks with his primary. With this change he does 98. In OW1 he does 115. He won’t be busting any tanks in OW2. You’d need to buff his damage to 165 just to equal his OW1 damage vs tanks.

1 Like
52

I mean part of the point of forums is to tell the devs when they’re just straight up wrong…

except where it’s physically aimable is almost melee range… which junk can’t get to well.

i.e. I doubt improvements there compensate loss of timed explosions or lingering mechanics which are pretty important outside of the assassination playstyle.

like sure it raises skill floor, but I don’t really think it raises skill ceiling much since there is potential lost in the process there rather than just purely potential gained.

which is practically speaking the same result as what you’re proposing ._.

expC buffed directs and close range whilst made his fall off really bad and soon which lowered effective range and made his spam worse but his assassination capabilities higher aside from the fact that he can’t get close all that well leading to a net nerf.

in your proposal whilst you didn’t do a direct ramp up on fall-off, you’ve practically achieved the same in removing the lingering mechanics and nerfing splash making spam (which lets be real is largely trying to shoot the nades outside of their effective range/range that they’re aimable in) worse which effectively is reducing his effective range.

and I disagree this really leaves him with much room for buffs elsewhere because without reworking his other abilities, what can you really buff? giving him more mine charges or lowering mine cd?

53

As long as they have armor.
Not all Tanks have armor to begin with, D.Vas armor got heavily reduced and overall with only 1 Tank there are way less options to reduce/deny his high burst damage for long.

54

Well, that’s why I originally posted my old idea.

https://i.imgur.com/lv4XwIT.png

Although they could use some old TF2 mechanics, where the damage from grenades gets reduced when it bounces.

Or alternatively make the grenade hitbox bigger before it bounces, then have the hitbox shrink after it bounces.

55

It’s aimable further than melee range. Hitting shots isn’t really the issue here. More often than not players escaping with 10-20hp was the issue. Yes there is also the issue of getting Junk into effective range but that’s a discussion for a different time. This thread is exclusively focused on what we can do with Junks primary fire within the limitations that the devs have already mentioned.

Ah I see where you’re coming from. I still disagree. This doesn’t actually limit his potential at mid range outside of choke spam. That is itself largely a low tier scenario though and the entire point of this is the nerf that playstyle. If trying to play at range, higher tier Junk players instead snipe players with mine/nade combos or hit directs onto tanks at that range instead. Spamming shots and causing a lot of aoe damage is not how you play Junk against good opponents. Nerfing that playstyle isn’t a major downside especially when properly compensated with more impact damage.

If you don’t think 140 is fair compensation that is a discussion we can have though.

Health. Replace trap with an ability that allows him to cross open terrain such as a smoke bomb. Replace trap with a fire bomb to still give him area control. Adjust mine fall off. Decrease mine cooldown. There are lots of directions the devs could go with Junk but in order to do so they need to first raise the skill floor on his primary while rewarding consistent directs more. Not doing that would result in what has always happend. Low ranks crying about him until the devs cave and nerf him despite the hero not being overpowered.

Of the tanks Orisa, Rein, Ball and Winston now have more armour. The remaining tanks all had their health increased along with having more options to negate Junks damage entirely. In the beta I outright ignored tanks on Junk. Why? It just wasn’t worth my time shooting at them and if I did engage they’d murder me. Either their armour would make my damage meaningless or their abilities would take too long to chew through. Junk would not be a tank buster even with this change. He gets eaten alive by tanks in OW2 and an extra 15 (or 20, depending on armour) damage won’t change that.

Why increase mine damage though? All that does is lower his skill floor even further and will result in him being too strong in low ranks, causing undeserved nerfs for high tiers. He needs a higher skill floor so that he can be properly buffed.

The devs are right. Adjusting primary fire while rewarding direct hits more is the way to go as that’s the skill expression in Junk.

That would be the best change as long as directs have greater reward but with how long that idea has been around yet never implemented I question if it’s currently possible for the devs to implement within Overwatch or if they’ve tried and ran into problems.

There’s no extra reward for hitting directs with that though. It’s just a straight nerf.

1 Like
56

I think you either wrote the wrong word or didn’t read the post. Since mine damage would be decreased.

Although the assumption here is no damage falloff for the mine.

https://i.imgur.com/lv4XwIT.png

Lemme rephrase then, make the hitbox bigger before it bounces (like 2x it’s current size), then back to normal size after a bounce.

57

Ah, I misread it.

While that could work we run into the same problem:

If there is still fall off then you run into huge consistency problems and it probably turns into a nerf or at best no better than everything being unchanged.

Same problem. That’s just a lowering of the skill floor.

58

The point with the first one is to raise the viability of grenade+mine combos.

And to make it so that doublemine doesn’t work.

Also they can just lower blind spam a bit. Maybe per bounce gets less explosion radius on the grenades.

59

Without raising the skill floor by eliminating spam we end up in the same place we always do. Low ranks crying about him forever until Blizzard cave in and nerf him. The devs are right. We need to focus on rewarding his primary for those who can hit consistent directs. If we can also remove value for those who spam blindly, even better as it protects him from nerfs.

60

K

Also they can just lower blind spam a bit. Maybe per bounce grenades gets less explosion radius.