Junkrat direct hits

From the recent developer blog:

We also want to acknowledge the growing conversation around Junkrat and Symmetra. Both heroes excelled as shield breakers, and the shift to a single tank composition as made both heroes feel slightly out of place in the emerging meta.

Junkrat continues to present interesting design questions. We’ve considered increasing Frag Launcher’s projectile speed; however, we found that by doing so, we risked making his signature weapon feel like more of a rocket launcher. Instead, we’re exploring ways to better reward direct hits as a form of skill expression

Ok. Let’s talk about Junkrat and what the devs could do to improve the value of direct hits with his primary fire in OW2.

Goal: Reward direct hits more, without changing projectile speed and while limiting spam potential resulting in a net buff to his primary fire.

Right now Junk gets a lot of value in lower tiers by spamming into chokes. However, lets lower its effectiveness even more.

What if we removed the splash/timed explosion damage from Junkrats nades almost entirely so missed shots won’t be causing massive team damage when they bounce around in the choke and will only cause high damage to one target instead of all clumped up teammates? Could we then reward his direct hits more and turn him into a high damage single target dps? It’s worth trying.

The changes

Value Current Suggested
Impact damage 40 110
Splash damage 80 30
Total damage 120 140

Before everyone screams, yes, 140 is a lot of damage. However, this is a big trade-off for Junk and a massive ult charge generation nerf for any Junk not consistently hitting directs. Spam will result in not having tire up much if ever. It relies on actually being consistent with directs which just isn’t something seen below masters.

It’s also worth mentioning that even with extra damage he won’t be blowing up tanks. In OW2 his damage vs armour is 84. With this change it’s still only 98 which is significantly less than on live.

Weaknesses:

  • Junk loses a of ult charge from aoe.
  • Choke/team spam will be significantly weaker.
  • He still retains his range weakness.

What he gains:

  • Better close-mid range duel potential. Building on his strengths.
  • Better kill confirmation that relies on actually scoring direct hits instead of using mines.
  • Better skill expression. With less aoe you either hit lots of directs or you don’t get kills and will never get tire due to hardly any aoe.

Overall I don’t see Junks total damage increasing all that much due to how much aoe damage he’ll lose. This should also keep the number of ults he generates the same. It does address kill consistency but only for players hitting consistent directs. Due to how the extra 10% movement speed impacts mines players escaping with 10-20hp after hitting a direct was a massive issue for me in the beta.

It’s a reward for aim while being a loss of value for spam and yes, a Junk consistently hitting directs should be getting far more reward than they currently do. As highlighted the by the devs.

Numbers obviously subject to tuning but that’s the idea. Much more impact damage but gut the aoe damage. Rewards aim, punishes choke spam.

I’m not actually convinced that this alone would even be enough for Junkrat to viable in OW2. He still needs things such as trap reverting/replacing. However it could be a good starting point for his changes. It also significantly raises his skill floor which would allow for more changes further down the line without making him a nightmare for low ranks.

Anyway that’s it :man_shrugging: Hopefully this can actually be a constructive thread with people throwing out ideas on how the devs can improve the value his primary fire brings when hitting directs.

8 Likes

Honestly I have no idea what the devs could do with Junkrat. They made his trap absolutely Useless in OW2 and idk what they could do with direct hits aside from more damage. But knowing how OW2 is going they’ll probably add a slowness effect on direct hits or something like that

5 Likes

You’re proposing the exact opposite of a solution to the Devs issue. They think he’s too good vs shields, and you’re suggesting a not insignificant 17% increase to his shield break.

They need to cap his damage vs shield or make only direct damage(as opposed to direct+AoE every nade) trigger on shields.

He’s too good at invalidating a single tank’s shield extremely quickly, but pretty poor against flankers and range, so Junks in a pretty tricky spot.

Sym, shield breaker?

That was a joke right? She has to full charge just to compete with soldier/hanzo.

1 Like

at full charge she is significantly better than them though, not saying she is good or anything but isn’t level 3 beam 170 dps?

1 Like

180 at max, but it takes forever to get there. Soldier and hanzo can decimate shields before sym gets to the 2nd level beam.

It also has limited range, putting sym in considerable danger.

3 Likes

We disagree on what the devs meant. I read that as them saying that due to shield heavy comps/bunkers not being a thing in OW2 both heroes are now in need of buffs. It’s also in the context of the general consensus being that Junk + Sym are F tier in OW2. Neither hero are even in the “emerging meta.” This also explains why the devs said:

They acknowledge that the primary is no longer getting enough value and are looking to buff it.

was a response post i did to aquamarine, i didnt feel in his post where he suggested changes that he even considered rewarding directs.

Maybe that’s my mistake, either way I don’t think increasing his shield break is the right answer.

Actually he did:

I just agree with him and decided to expand on it while the devs are still brainstorming ideas.

I say 3 mines, 3 traps, 60 impact, 60 splash, 250 hp.
But the grenades do 30% less damage each time it bounces without hitting anyone.

Doesnt sound too bad besides more health. If the devs start giving all heroes that are “struggling” more health , the TTK of the game once again goes up, and thats the opposite of what the devs wanted for OW2.
So far Zen now has more HP and i hope that trend of just giving heroes more HP doesnt continue.

I expect all of that would be too much but some definitely possible. I’ve always been a fan of decreasing damage based on bounces but I don’t know how possible that is for the devs to implement.

I know you play a lot of Junk but does increasing his damage actually increase his dueling potential?

As far as I am aware your changes make no difference to damage thresholds. He would just deal a little extra damage per hit but would still require the same number of hits to kill squishie targets.

So from my ignorant perspective, this would be a nerf in most aspects. Less AOE damage but increased single target damage which actually makes no difference on hits to kill. Isn’t the AOE version just easier and more consistent?

Another minor problem is nanoed Junk would deal 210 per hit. Spamming bodyshot 1-shots down a choke might cause Junkrat to become even more hated, however I don’t think this would be a legit strat in most cases. Probably.

1 Like

With the support passive actually yes it does. The support passive kicks in after 1 second which often leads to supports now surviving a mine into direct hit due to travel time of the primary.

Additionally helps vs targets getting healed and helps to compensate for mine fall off with the added movement speed. I prefer extra primary damage over altering mines as it helps reward skilled players instead of rewarding double mines.

Given how niche and inconsistent that would be I don’t see a problem with this.

1 Like

I mean its the least creative, but easiest solution. Unless they want to rework his abilities.

Cuz right now his entire playstyle is hes good at spamming choke, hallways, or shields without being visible and his trade off is being weak in open areas and heroes who have improved sidesteps.

Thats exactly what ive been saying for the longest. That his design is the issue not his damage , as he does massive damage already.
He was designed to be niche and strong in certain situations.
So the bigger issue besides his design being niche is people that 1 trick Junk and never switch, even in maps he is weak in.

And then complain that he needs big buffs to compete , when all they have to do is switch and not play a hero in places they are weak at.

TF2 programmed demoman’s grenades to lose direct hits after a bounce so i’m sure a game 10 years later could do it.

1 Like

I can see that. I still reckon it would be a nerf to the majority of players though. Average rank is Gold. Maybe I am understimating Gold players but aim isn’t exactly top notch and Junkrat counter to popular belief is actually fairly hard to score direct hits with, especially given any range. Sure, it might be a minor buff for people that can actually aim with Junk but is that really enough to offset the increased difficulty for an already underperforming hero?
Dunno chief.

Yer you are most likely right, however I could see it becoming a meme strat at like GM if Junkrat was considered even remotely viable.

Yes, that’s the point. It’s a significant increase to his skill floor and ceiling. That allows for further changes to finally make him viable in upper tiers.

Like I said in the OP I don’t think it would be enough as a single change. It just makes the heroes design healthier and opens up the possibility of actual buffs without low ranks freaking out.

It would definitely be the most elegant change. The way the devs have never done it does make me suspect that don’t want to or the current game just doesn’t support it…