How would you design a report system so it prevents misuse? I don’t think that’s possible as a report system implies that the reporter himself decides where he sees a violation.
My question was how you intend to punish bad teamplayers. You refered a lot to how you don’t intend to punish them. But how would you actually do it (if not with a report system)?
It is not measurable. Is this even significant?
Should people in Competitive not be punished for poor teamwork (or whatever detrimental behavior you can imagine) just because it’s not measurable by an algorithm? There would be no report system if only measurable things would be punishable.
Please elaborate.
I’m assuming this is also a rhetorical question.
Of course I was referring to decisions within the game concerning the match you are in. Let’s stay constructive here.
Is this an answer to my question if you assumed that QP wouldn’t improve with less anti-teamplayers?
If so, I didn’t unsderstand that. Can you elaborate on that?
Remind you - the topic is called ““It’s just QP” should be punishable”, not “The report system works without any false positives”.
But is there an alternative, anyways? If there’s no improvement proposal on what to use instead of the report system, the discussion about whether or not the report system is good for it seems kinda pointless.
Erm…it is punishable since people have already been punished because of it. And we’re discussing about whether it should be punishable.
Some modes are way too extreme (and yes, some also less balanced) and thus can’t really be taken for granted as competitive, yes.
But more importantly: All solo modes (Deathmatch/Duel) allow you to be as competitive as you wish with it. So for those people who find teamwork in QP too competitive, these modes will definitely be less competitive as they won’t engage in competitive behavior.
So you would agree that you should expect your teammates to try to win in quickplay, too, because it’s Overwatch and Overwatch is competitive?
You said that by making poor teamwork punishable you remove the fun aspect of QP.
So if you actually can have fun working with your team it doesn’t remove the fun aspect after all, does it?
How would that work? If poor teamwork is punishable, then players advocating this are not immune to punishments.
To make poor teamwork punishable has the purpose of the whole team accomodating to each other. Not just 5 players to the sixth one.
You make it seem onesided. However the intention is not.
I don’t get this.
Who said your rank reflecting your skill would be an issue?
How/what would skew any of your ranks?
Because composition is an integral part of trying to win.
You don’t go to a machine-gun fight with a butter knife and expect anyone to believe you actually wanted to win, do you?
Choosing a bad composition in overwatch is that butter knife.
Why do you assume that players advocating punishable poor teamwork don’t make any efforts?
Deal with it, QP is for people wo will otherwise never get to try the plethera of DPS heroes actually get a chance to play them since they’ll never do it in Comp
Stick to easily defined and verified rules and require human oversight of punishments. A reporter may well decide what to report but that doesn’t mean it will be considered a violation. I do realise that this runs into cost/benefit issues.
There is no acceptable way to punish bad teamplayers within Overwatch’s current matchmaking-based design. If the playerbase was mostly represented on dedicated servers, as in older FPS games, we would see the community automatically sort poor teamplayers into different servers from those who wanted a more organised style of play. Alternatively, Blizzard could create matchmaking categories for those who wanted different styles of play. Perhaps “Competitive” for serious teamplayers, “Quick Play” for a more relaxed and casual style of play, and “Unranked” for those who aren’t sure whether they’re serious or not.
“Recordable” might have been a better choice on my part. If it is not recordable, who is to say that it occurred?
Where is the line between “I’m going to play deathmatch away from the point as Reinhardt” and “I don’t want to play Mercy every game” prior to her nerfs? Now that I mention it, how do we determine that the Reinhardt isn’t actually helping their team in the absence of a scoreboard?
Also, what happens if I make a conscious decision to play Reinhardt, on whom I have little to no playtime, and end up making several plays that hold the point through overtime? Should I be reportable because I’ve consciously made a decision that didn’t help my team win despite actually helping my team win? How does one decide whether another player made a conscious decision in the first place?
Current player behaviour indicates that full and unarguable definitions are necessary. If your definition is incomplete it will be exploited.
That is correct. I think that punishing poor teamwork will quite quickly become punishing non-meta hero choice and not joining voicechat. These would stifle compositions and drive out shy but otherwise good players respectively. I do not think the gain in teamwork will outweigh these problems.
My argument is more that the current report system works well for offences that are easy to record. Only the Cheating and Poor Teamwork categories fail this criterion. This is not necessarily a problem so long as they are sufficiently well-defined and community norms are sufficiently well-developed to support their defined use.
The current norm around Poor Teamwork in Quick Play is that it is not reportable and this is all that prevents its abuse. The Poor Teamwork report option is also defined in such a way that poor teamwork as we’ve discussed it is not punishable but, as previously mentioned, it is abused in Competitive anyway.
As for a change to the system, I suggest narrowing the definition of the Poor Teamwork report option until there is no reason to use it over another option and matching together all those who file a Poor Teamwork report. I think the community would find themselves matched with those of similar expectations. They may or may not find this to be an improvement.
I doubt you support bans for “ez” but I consider it poor sportsmanship. The problem with defining poor sportsmanship is that it is difficult to find a community norm. I would argue that sledging is poor sportsmanship but I’ve seen other players justify tilting their opponents as fair play.
I would argue that FFA modes appeal more to extremely competitive players. No Limits or Total Mayhem would be a better suggestion.
I also think that “competitive” and “actually enjoys playing with others” are uncorrelated if not mutually exclusive in some cases.
Yes, in the sense that I expect them to play the objective. Note that this does not mean that I would expect them to play meta or even optimal play. I had a good game recently where we won with five DPS players and Mercy against a team running a fairly standard 2/2/2 composition.
I enjoy working with my team. I would not have fun working with my team if they defined good teamwork as playing Mercy every game. A team is based on mutual respect, not just the matchmaker.
It is one-sided. The player with the problem makes the report. If they don’t indicate they’ve reported the other five, how would they know to counter-report? At the same time, enough of these players will boast about reporting “poor teamplayers” to cause a chilling effect in Quick Play.
Your rank would better reflect your skill if you played every game in Competitive. Despite this, you play Quick Play “to practice without jeopardizing your rank”. Why would you consider your rank accurately reflecting your skill to be an issue?
I think you would find it extremely hard to build two compositions that fit the machine-gun/butter knife metaphor. This mentality is exactly why I don’t like the Poor Teamwork report option. The game isn’t lost until DEFEAT appears and composition is most assuredly not everything, especially in Quick Play.
It is easier to go to the LFG subforum or the LFG subreddit and swap details than to post multiple arguments for making Poor Teamwork in Quick Play punishable. It is probably also more effective at improving the quality of teamwork in games. Despite that, this thread exists.
According to the latest Blizzard news and GM answers, the refuse of changing a hero who is not “working” with the rest of the team combination, it’s reportable (Reports are for every mode). Only the one-trick accounts according to Jeff (accounts who main 1 hero) are the exception to this rule.
I love playing Overwatch because having a team of fun, motivated players who work together to achieve victory is incredibly fun. I love being able to communicate and synergise with my team and improve myself as an individual and a team player.
I dislike Quick Play because of it’s randomness. Some games are fun and you get a balanced team and are able to play Overwatch how it was intended, but the vast majority of games have five or six DPS insta-locks and the game quickly becomes tiring and tedious.
Maybe adding a new game-mode called “Training Grounds” or something where can play exactly the same as Quick Play is now, keeping the freedom to do whatever they want and pick whoever they want. Quick Play could be a better representative of how Overwatch is meant to be played, while keeping the option for players to learn new heroes open in the Training Grounds.
I’m not sure if that’s a terrible idea, but it’s just something I came up with on the spot. I’d like to be able to play Overwatch as a team instead of a ramshackle selection of players wandering around. I think it would make the game a lot more fun.
You do realize that OW’s majority of game modes is a team game. Competitive is not the only team mode, stop trying to find excuses.
EDIT: Why do you think 3v3 lockout elim is on teams of 3? Why do you think QP is on teams of 6? Your argument makes no sense that comp is the only team mode
Well, I prefer to QP when ppl are really trying to make different then a full round of “whatever It’s qp mindset” when your game is just about dying and dying, stomp, stomp, smash and smash and you just spent 10 min in a useless match, sorry but I don’t think you will learn something or have fun.
What no there are no exceptions the rule is you cant be reported for playing the hero you want to play as long as you are trying on it, even in comp. Simple as that.
QP as an excuse to practice for competitive makes no sense when you don’t have a proper team composition IN YOUR QP MATCH. What if you’re the typical **** Hanzo or Widowmaker just being destroyed by an enemy Winston all match while the rest of your crap QP team ‘practices’ their bad heroes. How is you dying to Winston over and over again practice?
By the way, I main tank and mostly play QP and I absolutely ******* destroy Widows and Hanzos, and Genjis with my boy Winston. It’s so much fun imagining the rage they’re experiencing after every time I kill them. And seeing the panic Genji deflects on my tesla cannon.
Yeah great practice. And for clarity, I have owned this game since Day 1 and have placed in every competitive season. I either place Gold or Platinum every season. I just don’t enjoy competitive that much, so I play QP where I can relax but also try at the same time. Because I DO care about winning and my stats. This is why even in QP I don’t pick heroes I don’t play well.
I hope there’s a difference between “not trying” and “practicing a hero” for you guys.
I like Widow. I’m not good with her though. So I take her to QP to get better as her, because I figure I might as well try to get better in something where I won’t punish myself and others for terrible performance. If I get reported for sucking at Wid (or worse…not changing off of her to help what is probably already a losing game) then that’s absolutely bonkers. “Just to go arcade”, you might say. Well, if I go to arcade, it doesn’t have the same rules or feel as comp, versus how QP goes.
tl;dr: Sounds reasonable if you absolutely are being toxic, but leave people who want to practice certain heroes out of this.
What we need is a competitive practice, if Blizzard is going to allow people to play like fools in quickplay, while the Arcade is also there for that purpose (to a degree), then those of us that don’t want to commit to a full competitive environment need our own safe space as well.
