" 🐐 isn't ran in the lower ranks."

[BastionBabǝ-1672]

80% F A L S E.

GOATS is Rein, Zarya, Dva, Zen, Lucio, and Brig, with some substitutions, of course.

Who are the 6 most picked heros in Bronze?

1. Reinhardt
2. Moira
3. Mercy
4. Dva
5. Ana
6. Lucio

How about in Silver?

1. Rein
2. Moira
3. Ana
4. Mercy
5. Dva
6. Lucio

Gold?

1. Rein
2. Ana
3. Moira
4. Mercy
5. Zarya
6. Lucio

Plat?

1. Rein
2. Ana
3. Zarya
4. Lucio
5. Genji
6. Moira

Diamond?

1. Ana
2. Rein
3. Zarya
4. Lucio
5. Genji
6. Zen

Shall I continue?

So those thinking I misreprsented data, here is the breakdown:

@BastionBabǝ-1672

Assuming 2-2-2 is the most mainstream/normal comp, each role should be totaled to have a 33% pickrate.

With 6 supports, the average pickrate should be 5.5 for the supports.

Ana, Lucio, and Moira are above that.

With 7 tanks, the average pickrate should be 4.7 for tanks.

Rein, Zarya, and Dva are all above that.

With 16 DPS, the average pickrate should be around 2.

Genji, McCree, Reaper, Hanzo, Ashe, and Widow are all above that.

So with that said, Why are tanks and supports picked more than DPS? especially if Rein, and the other GOATS heros are picked far above everyone else?

Because here is the pickrate breakdown:

Tanks: Total pickrate of 32.97
Supports: 35.17
DPS: 31.87

Thus the point I’m trying to make, is that the heros who are very good on ladder, and also a part of GOATS, need to be nerfed slightly. I explain in explicit detail why I think that, and how I think they should be nerfed.

DPS are lagging behind, and my goal is to not cave into the power creep by buffing them, but rather nerfing the problematic heros of this game, which include 2 tanks and 2 supports, of which are the best in their class and suppress their counterparts.

---

So the 20% portion of GOATS not being ran in ladder/lower ELOS comes from the fact that those ranks are not doing play-by-plays and copycats of GOATS. However, the heros in GOATS are very high on the pick rates.

Here’s the thing- If a hero is a problem on ladder AND in pro/meta play, then…

They are a problem. They are too powerful.

Making the other heros JUST as powerful is not going to fix the game, it’s only going to power creep it more and make a more powerful Meta, or in the case of ladder, heros who cannot be touched nor countered. This is what has devolved the game into it’s current state. Contributing to the power creep does not solve the power creep.

GOATS hasn’t died because Rein still does too much damage, Zarya’s energy compensation buff made up for the Brig damage nerfs, Lucio still allows non-mobile heros to cover ground very fast AS WELL AS stacking healing with Brig, and Zen allows his teammates to annihilate any enemy left exposed.

GOATS is a problem because more heros are problematic than just Brig. At 10+ consecutive nerfs, Brig is along for the ride. She’s probably the least problematic hero in GOATS aside from Dva, who is a byproduct of her 3DM box that cripples the same DPS heros who the Dva mains tell to “just demech her lmao 4head.”

GOATS will never die until these problematic heros both in GOATS and in ladder get addressed.

How do we address these problems?

1. Zen discord needs to be 15/20%. (*however Zen gets an aditional 15/10% discord damage, so he gets to keep the 30% which keeps him balanced in a 1v1 setting)

It is far too much to have an enemy take 30% more damage, of ALL incoming damage. This is how low-DPS heros can thrive, since Zen’s discord makes up for it. Who are these relatively low DPS heros? Tanks, moreso Brig and Rein.

2. Lucio needs a different classification for his healing aura so it doesn’t stack with brig’s heal, OR he needs a CD between crossfade.

This is because Brig and Lucio both heal for 16 HPS (16.66 in Brigs case), which is slightly more than Zen’s harmony. Actually, that is a good reference. Imagine every hero on Zen’s team having a harmony orb. That is a huge healing buffer, since you can stack on Zen or any other support’s healing to negate the damage that DPS can output, aside from Genji whose ult can tear through that kind of healing, unlike Pharah, Junkrat, Hog, and Bastion who are all countered by Dva (DM) and can easily be dealt with.

The latter option is because Lucio can stack his healing while he speeds his team, which allows his team to receive healing AND speedboost. This is because his healing and speed effects linger once he crossfades. This is why you see a Lucio constantly swap between heals and speeds when 2 GOATS teams are fighting.

3. Lower Rein’s Charge and Hammer damage (200 per charge, 65 per hammer swing).

This is because Rein is too superior over Winston (aside in cases where mobility is needed), and especially Orisa.

One Charge:

• puts Orisa on death’s doorstep (actually Charge + Discord = 390 damage, which is basically death for Orisa)
• puts Bastion on death’s doorstep (leaving him with 3hp, which is basically dead after 1 hammer swing)
• kills Reaper and Mei, 2 strong anti-tank and anti-group heros

This cripples his competition, and prevents his counters from being a threat to him.

Meanwhile his damage that his hammer help outputs as much damage as Wrecking ball, and 2k shy of Orisa. All while he has the superior Barrier, since it is VERY good for pushing (Orisa cannot relocate a barrier, and 2 barrier equals less HP than 1 Rein Barrier), and is very good defensively since it is 2000 HP, of which a good Rein will never let it drop to 0, unless to absorb some kind of burst damage like a Dva Bomb, or Riptire.

His damage should be akin to Winston, who does 60 DPS. 65 per hammer swing puts his DPS at 71.5, whereas his current DPS with 75/swing is 82.5. This makes Rein require 1 extra hammer swing to get a kill, which doesn’t seem like a lot since 3 swings at 65 damage per swing only equates to 195, but this actually huge since it makes Rein less threatening to a hero, especially a squishy DPS, who is getting healed.

Rein has far too much aggressive potential, and Orisa cannot compete without breaking her. Sure, she needs some QoL buffs, but she will never compete with Rein, because she is still inferior to him.

• 100 less health
• Cannot relocate a barrier (making her very defense-favored and stationary.)
• Charge puts her on death row.
• Her barriers melt rather easily, compared to Rein who can sustain more damage for longer periods, and can drop it at will, allowing him to be aggressive while his barrier recharges.

4. Revert Zarya’s energy drain compensation buff.

Grav was a problem because of it’s AoE, so Blizzard nerfed it’s range, but allowed Zarya to maintain higher levels of energy (since it decayed slower) which equates to higher damage, and higher damage equates to more gravs.

Geez, Zarya was more balanced back in grav-dragons.

Plus with her having the second highest DPS output in the game (Whereas Bastion trades all mobility for that kind of damage, PLUS he has spread), she should NOT be able to maintain that kind of high energy throughout the whole battle, or even charging up via poke damage.

And the whole “lul don’t shoot the bubbles 4head” argument is null since OWL, thee most competitive tier, still charges Zarya to unreasonably high amounts. This is on par with “lul just click on mercy’s head 4head.”

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These are the 4 biggest issues with GOATS, and the trickle-down effect that causes these heros to be far superior compared to their counters, and counterparts.

[Slinkylinky-11538]

Bronze - Plat dont matter what comp you choose.

Its more about mechanical skill than anything.

[Focosa88-2111]

@BastionBabǝ-1672

This is because his healing and speed effects linger once he crossfades.

Actually, no, it does not

The lingering effect works only if an ally exists Lucio’s range, but when he uses Crossfade, the effect goes off

[BastionBabǝ-1672]

@Slinkylinky-11538

Bronze - Plat dont matter what comp you choose.

As long as it has the heros from GOATS, it’ll be rather easy compared to alternatives or even countering.

@Slinkylinky-11538

Its more about mechanical skill than anything.

Not really. At those ELOS the lower skill heros are picked more.

@Focosa88-2111

Actually, no, it does not

The lingering effect works only if an ally exists Lucio’s range, but when he uses Crossfade, the effect goes off

There is a clear ramping down effect. There is not a sudden jolt where all speedboost is lost.

[Focosa88-2111]

@BastionBabǝ-1672

There is a clear ramping down effect. There is not a sudden jolt where all speedboost is lost.

No

[Mitrovarr-1405]

I agree with Rein and Zarya. People have got to realize it’s just not their job to get kills.

Not entirely sure about Lucio and Zen since they feel more balanced relative to the support category, whereas Rein and Zarya are obviously head and shoulders over any other tank.

[BastionBabǝ-1672]

Hop into the practice range.

Click Lucio.

Start on speed.

The Crossfade to heal.

It’s not like it’s lingering for 1-2 seconds, it’s a problem because even is he’s speed boosting only 60% of the time, there is an overlap of his healing and his speed that makes spamming crossfade viable.

If you wish to disprove that, then explain why so many Lucios at higher levels constantly crossfade.

[Mitrovarr-1405]

@BastionBabǝ-1672

If you wish to disprove that, then explain why so many Lucios at higher levels constantly crossfade.

It’s to constantly vary the evasion speed of their teammates. Pulsing speed boost makes their speed unpredictable - it also makes it hard to aim but good players can do it.

[Yara-11173]

It’s worth mentioning that tanks and supports will have higher pick rates even in a 100% balanced perfect scenario, simply because there’s less of them.

[BastionBabǝ-1672]

With Zarya, yea, it’s kind of her job. Her bubbles absorb damage, and she pumps that damage back out.

The problem is that her damage is consistently high now. That’s on par with Roadhog constantly getting hook-combos, like he could before his kit rebalance.

The overlying problem is that it’s way tooo easy to melt as Rein, Zarya, and any target that is discorded. And keep in mind, I want to target the focus fire melting discord targets, and not gutting Zen to where he gets rolled by everyone.

[Mitrovarr-1405]

I dont think it should be Zarya’s job. She has a huge survivability advantage with 400 hp (half of which regenerates) and an on-demand personal barrier - to make up for that, her weapon has to be pretty crap.

Remember, she’s not more “expensive,” than DPS. She is just another character and is not supposed to be stronger than S76, or Symmetra, or whatever.

[Focosa88-2111]

@BastionBabǝ-1672

If you wish to disprove that, then explain why so many Lucios at higher levels constantly crossfade.

Because inertia benefits from speed boosts, I’d say. That’s why Moira jumps while fading, for example.

If you see a “ramp down”, that’s probably because there’s acceleration in the game. I don’t know if it affects slows and speed boosts tho. It may make it look smoother, but it’s insignificant

[Megadodo-11847]

Goats is actally rein dva zarya Lucio moira brig

All else is a variant, not actually goats

[JimothyJohn-1949]

@BastionBabǝ-1672

80% F A L S E.

Your interpretation of the data is pretty terrible to be honest.

Tanks and healers tend to have high pickrates due to the fact the dps category dwarf’s both by a large margin.

Every player knows a team typically needs at least one tank and one healer. Meaning most of the time you will have one of each from small pools. Creating high pick rates.

However, DPS on the other hand have so many options that the pickrates get spread far wider.

TL:DR if there were as many tanks and supports as there are damage characters we would see pickrates that spread just as wide.

[Roflknife-2617]

Are you telling me that players always play goats in lower ranks and the fact that they didnt do that in my matches was just an illusion?

[Focosa88-2111]

It’s still kinda surprising for me to see tanks and healers so popular in lower ranks tbh, but you’re right about the distribution stuff

[Slinkylinky-11538]

I just bought another account. In 2 days I went from bronze to Diamond simply using hammond.

I could of done this with most dps and tanks easily.

Honestly. I lost like 1 bronze game, 2 silver games, and 1 gold game.

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Yes. Mechanical skill alone can carry you to Diamond.

[Udoroth-1433]

@Slinkylinky-11538

I just bought another account. In 2 days I went from bronze to Diamond simply using hammond.

hey thanks for ruining other peoples matches by playing in a rank you didnt belong in

must feel good to trash lower skilled players with “any dps or tank easily”

[PuffyPony-1639]

I’ve been playing in Gold lately because I’ve been one-tricking new heroes through placements after taking an extended break from comp, and I’ve seen GOATS like… three, maybe four times. It’s kinda of like how having DVa, Genji, Zen, and Mercy didn’t automatically mean you were running Dive. GOATS isn’t just 3-3, it’s also the strategy that accompanies the specific comp.

Healers and tanks always have inflated pickrates, because they compete far less for a slot than DPS do. If you assume equal spread on a 2-2-2 comp, then your average healer pickrate would be 5.6%, your average tank pickrate would be 4.7%, and your average DPS pickrate would be 2.1%. It’s just the nature of the beast. When you start factoring in viabilities, those numbers change shift, so even a relatively-balanced support could have like a 7.5-9% pickrate in a 2-2-2 meta.

[Lycaon-11844]

Lol I see this is the thread of playing it fast and loose with data. This is what happens when people try to draw their own conclusions from statistics without context.