And that lack of frequency brings us to another point
Rein ain’t special, that sort of nonsense happens to everyone. He’s not the only character that hangs out up front, and with the way his barrier functions he should be seeing the least of that nonsense.
There’s risk in charging, yes, yet I see it make plays during teamfights even in OWL. Whatever chance it has to be good is greater than zero, and getting that value is gonna be easier in OW2. Super is probably gonna break OWL in half next season.
Even I’ve said this. In my OP, I called them buffs, and said “but they aren’t buffs to tanking, which tank mains want. And they’re certainly not super buffs due to the drawbacks. They’re just buffs.”
At most, I said they were SITUATIONALLY nerfs. As in, they can SITUATIONALLY be worse, but over all I filed them under the “buffs” category.
FWIW, I’ve played enough games to know what to expect from my team and I test certain things to see if they’ll respond to it. If they don’t, I know what to expect and play appropriately.
So when I play Tank, I lead, and stay near corners and health packs and push (and play barrier heavy heroes rather than Zarya). I typically don’t play aggressively in these situations unless I’m in range for it, and in most situations I’ll end up with gold or silver damage. Taking about 9-15 deaths or so.
I’m not asking for anything for any supports. They play what they want to play and they know what they’re getting into. I do, frequently, have to point out the Supports that “X player needs healing” because they tend not be attentive.
Yes, most of time when I play Genji I spent more time looking for healthpacks or heading directly back to spawn for healing since the Supports aren’t doing their job. If I play Soldier, I’m usually hitting silver (sometimes gold) healing within 6 to 8 minutes. Sometimes with as many as 15 deaths. Usually I’m ending up with the highest number of deaths because I’m the one pushing the payload, or the Supports refuse to acknowledge flanking exists. Or because the enemy team is frequently dying and being pressured by me. (and sometimes by others).
Reinhardt is not my tank of choice. I usually prefer Winston or Zarya. These days, I tend to play a lot of Reinhardt as it is easier for Supports to heal, or at least should be. But even now, that’s not always true.
Being a flex-player, this is obvious. But even I can pull myself out of entanglements as Mercy, or Moira or Lucio or even Ana. There are occasions where I’m being specifically hunted as Baptiste; but I still prioritize my team’s health over my own and still deploy Immortality Field towards them, rather than me.
And even when I take 17 deaths as Baptiste, I still manage to outheal my co-Support Lucio/Mercy/Moira/Brigitte.
Let’s math this out.
There’s a full 1.12 casting and recovery time for Reinhardt to produce one Firestrike. Since dropping barrier and bring up the barrier is immediate; we don’t really have to factor in cast times here. But let’s say we did and put a .5 second delay on each.
So that means 2.12 seconds for each Firestrike and barrier raising. That gives Soldier 2.12 seconds to deal some damage to Reinhardt. That’s 20 damage a shot, 9 shots per second, being reduced by armor by 5, so 15 per shot with 9 shots per second. So 135 damage per second. With 2.12 seconds, that’s about 286 damage. Not enough to kill Reinhardt.
But let’s say Soldier is being pocketed by Mercy. So a 30% boost in damage, So 20 damage with 30% buff is 26 damage, minus armor, so 21 damage per shot, 9 shots per second; 189 damage per second. 2.12 second window of opportunity; about 401. Still not quite enough (there’s also some leeway here with armor missing about 1.8 seconds in).
So the math basically says no. Unless you consider adding Helix Rocket in, Mercy damage-boost (making it a 2v1), and Soldier is optimal range. And Soldier has a full extra second between between the barrier being down and the barrier being brought up.
There are plenty of angles and choke points in various maps where Soldier is not going to have an angle on Reinhardt without getting fairly deep into the enemy’s ZoI. Should that happen; it’s not really Reinhardt’s fault that his team isn’t covering his bad side. Should Reinhardt be solo in those situations; yeah he’ll have an issue; but he can handle one target like Soldier.
If its the enemy team; that’s a completely different story and different strategy is required, but that’s not what’s being implied here.
Are we now considering Biotic Grenade’s debuff crowd control too? Should we start considering Swiftstrike and Pharah’s basic strikes crowd control now? What about dynamite?
The consideration here (and I’m not disagreeing with you); is that a lot of Tank players are dying to focus-fire when they Firestrike; which means you’re dealing with at least 3+ targets all shooting at your Reinhardt and you, Reinhardt, aren’t being healed or having some kind of mitigation to slow that damage down. This gets misconstrued in the death cams as a single-solitary target making the finishing blow and creating a misinterpretation that it was that character; and solely that character, that did all the damage to eliminate that Reinhardt in less than a second.
That does not happen. Any form of basic math will show that can’t happen. In situations where Reinhardt dies immediately after he throws out a Firestrike, it was because he was getting focus-fired. It has be to understood that in that situation, Reinhardt made a bad call and got punished for it. It’s not due to anything else.
debuffs are some form of soft crowd control
as for dynamite, i think it could also be considered some form of crowd control due to the Damage Over Time debuff
Okay. Then Recon Arrow, Venom Mine, and Infra-sight are crowd control abilities. Got it.
Infra sight and recon arrow, not sure although in a way they could count
venom mine, it could be one but lets be honest, its too weak for anyone to be concerned about its existance
widow scoping alone does more to scare the enemy team away than venom mine
My dude, you’re setting and changing the conditions of this vacuum scenario to hold-up your argument. Nobody ever said only individual heroe’s damage would kill, simply that it can melt you if you don’t take action.
In the case of fire strike specifically, I guess we needed to spell-out for you the idea that a single dps isn’t the issue. It’s the fact that, in that 2.12 seconds or even 1.12 seconds, Rein (or any tank in that time frame) can be instantly deleted from the match. It happens. Sometimes, it happens through your barrier (ie barrier and hp gone in less than 5s). It happens.
I’d argue nobody in their right mind was ever saying a single DPS can kill you that fast. That’s not how I read any of the arguments.
My point about the soldier is that he can kill you without ever shooting your barrier if he’s uncontested or you don’t react appropriately. If you didn’t isolate the quote the way you did, the preceding sentence references the fire strike animation and the phrase “beyond that” exits us from that context. Here’s the entire quote:
You want to do the math on the scenario then start factoring in Orissa + Sig spam (since that tank pair is popular, maybe use hog instead of Sig), pick a second DPS, and throw-in Bap spam or Zen discord + volley. The damage is there. It’s never a fun feeling to catch it all at once either lol.
With that said, I’d like to go back to what I said at the end of that other post:
This has the potential to be a real problem across the board. Not a situational occurrence like the spam damage deleting tanks.
Even with one less tank doing damage, there’s no way tanks are sustainable with a 25% healing debuff during a team fight. What this is could potentially do (at lower ranks at least) is push both supports into feeling like they must dump all their resources into only their tank, trying to compensate for that debuff. The right answer is going to be to put utility/resource into securing faster kills. Again, especially at lower ranks, that faster kill is going to be the biggest, closest thing to the team which is going to be the tank (more often than not). If this is how things play out, tanks are going to be on respawn simulator almost constantly.
Let’s hope this holds true:
Right right, I see it now.
Here’s a sad thing: there aren’t enough tank mains. They gotta lure DPS mains over to have better queues. They kind of have to choose between catering to minority and having everyone else continue to suffer, or catering to the majority and peeing off the minority. It’s indeed a bad rap for those who are devoted to more defensive tanking.
I would agree if it worked. The thing is that it didn’t work, and its resulting in even MORE tanks leaving. That’s the problem. If they made a change to tanks, and then suddenly people started flowing to the tank queue and everything was all good in the hood, I would have said “Well, clearly I don’t know what I’m talking about!” and left it at that. Even if I didn’t play OW anymore.
Indeed, they have had to choose between the minority and the majority, but unlike most choices, it seems like all outcomes were “and nobody was happy, so people left the game”. I think, in that case, the solution would have been to try changes that made everyone happy. Tanks that were tanky, but DPS with conventional ways to counter out tanks tankiness. And vice versa of course.
My idea were for futuristic weapons to do more damage to shields, that way shields could be strong, but a lot of heroes wouldn’t be considered irrelevent.
I’m still waiting to see before calling it.
And the theory I have is that even if current tank players leave, there’s so few of them to begin with that it doesn’t matter. It might be possible to make up for the loss and then some, by luring dps over with x changes (jury’s still out if the changes they’re making will achieve this).
That theory is an exaggeration, and pretty callous, but you get the point.
Actually, I don’t think the “there’s so few tank players that it wouldn’t matter if they left” thing is a callous strat. If anything, it makes the most sense right now. Remember that my issue is the “luring DPS to the tank role” thing is my chief issue because it hasn’t worked yet in any of their attempts. In my opinion, I don’t think it will because Tank like gameplay isn’t appealing to people who mainly queue for other roles.
Its the same for me, too. I bought this game to play tanks, and while I enjoy the other characters, I’m probably going to queue for tanks whenever I play. Honestly, I think a good idea would have been to make tanks fun for tanks, but I think that ship has sailed.
If tanks were more fun to play… I would play them more.
As it is, my dps main is a lot more fun, and a LOT more mobile. Though, I did switch to Orisa, Sigma, and lately I have been doing some Rein. But, Orisa is too slow in every way possible… Sigma, they made worse by adding cool downs with his shield to the point that most players drop the shield and only redeploy it when it’s destroyed and re-upped. (Which, also is a hurdle for new tank mains, as they can’t get the positioning right, and the team dies because there’s a cd attached. I know, because when I went back to him when Rein failed me, I screwed up every shield attempt and killed my team by not blocking dva bombs.)
Rein is okay, but a lot of times, it just feels like you’re the punching bag that everyone takes out their aggressions on, and no one pushes with you… so you die alone because your shield is destroyed. Other times, it is decent, because you’re not slaughtered and and the healers aren’t trying to be dps.
If anything, “Flex” has showed me that trying to lure people to different roles fails miserably as they just dps with that role, and forget that they have a function… Like, Widow / Hanzo mains that take Ana, and try to dps at 20 dmg per shot. If I had a penny for every time I danced in front of one of those Ana’s, trying to get healed because I have 5 health, I would make Bezos look poor.
See, the tank role was always going to be niche. It always is, but there’s nothing wrong with that as long as there’s a relatively healthy number of tanks around. Because of that, you don’t HAVE to like the tanks at all, as long as the people who DO like the tanks are having fun.
The only issue with Overwatch is that they nerfed the tanks, and now TANK players don’t want to play them. A DPS player not wanting to play tanks is normal.
Until they confirm that they don’t feel this way, I would postpone assurances that it will be okay. They have proven in the past to be perfectly willing to break with reason or even pity, I am looking at that Sombra rework and expecting they will continue the tradition in the future.