Idk about counterplay not working in 6v6, those abilities could all be played around. Ow2 saw tanks having the problem with being countered too hard, to the point of being miserable to play, abilities that were fine in ow1 had to be nerfed severely. The recent mid-season patch removed a lot of counter play and is way worse than any ability stacking in 6v6, would be winston counters now barely do anything to him after all the changes, dva became even more oppressive against non-beam heroes and even then, all the beam heroes just kinda suck currently so what can you even do against her, that is so much worse than duo tank in ow1. These changes are from trying to make solo tank in work in 5v5 and I just can’t see how making tanks unstoppable juggernauts is the right direction to take the game.
Separately yes, but together their are not many options outside of ult combo’s that just ignore their benefits outright.
Because the normal moment to moment play stuff is pretty easy to neutralize. Repear isn’t a threat to winston because d.va can hold DM over him starve him of the self heal, and just have both tanks if not your back line shoot into him.
And that’s kind of the issue, it’s less those heroes individually were strong. As winston was kind of weak solo for quite a long while. Especially in dive where a lot of his coutners got ubber buffed.
I personally see that as an over exaggeration, outside of a hero like ball.
Alot of tank players need to break the mind set of being the “aggro” taker and stop attempting to throw them selves into the line of fire of the whole enemy team.
And save tools like barrier / dm for things that would counter them. At least to some extent.
Like you are just allowed to push out of a fight for a second or so, cleanse nade/hack/discord by just waiting it out then push back in with cooldown refreshed and the ability to get healed and the like.
So your not suppose to be able to just pick 1 hero and just nuke the tank, that’s never how it worked in 5v5.
Like a hog doesn’t just stop existing if you throw nade at him.
Also like the tank changes are not as extreme as people think they were. burst domage doing 5 less damage to armor, isn’t a big deal. nor is riens extra 200hp on barrier.
d.va is a odd one because DM being up for an extra .5 seconds does stall better into jets, however… she is still weak to cross fire and you can just attack her team still, especially if your the beam or melee heroes.
TLDR don’t just stand all in one spot for DM to munch on all your damage, and you will be fine.
Eh all those heroes were power shifted not nerfed. Mei is really darn good dps at the moment. So is cassidy and sombra.
Ya CC was moved away from any role but tank, because they didn’t want you to just nuke something like hog or d.va with mei primary freeze all game.
Edit: thing sent out a pre edited version of this post my bad for not seeing that ealier.
Reaper was ok in 6v6 because he is a tankbuster who requires to deal damage to survive: more tanks = bigger targets = more life steal = he can survive a bit. Even if he dies, he will most of the time atleast burst down 1 of 2 tanks so he atleast fulfills his job. He was your average character who can solo a team of uncoordinated players but who hit his face with a wall with a little coordination, just saying “Reaper behind” is enought to atleast make him retreat. I don’t know the workshop code, but if there is less cc than in OW1 Reaper will ve naturally stronger now.
dva matrix was 1.5s, winston bubble was destroyed within 4 seconds, you make the abilities sound way stronger than they actually are, the dive tanks have to put themselves at risk to do anything too. Also, those heroes were plenty strong on their own, not like they were dependent on each other, they could be played with a multitude of partners, dva’s only bad teammate is zarya, and winston doesn’t even have ones that are anti synergy, some less ideal than others, but not to the point of throwing.
Not really, many people just straight up stopped playing tank in ow2 because of how solo tanking feels.
idk about, I’d just sleep anti a doom and my team finishes him off instantly.
heroes that do less than like 30 damage do like nothing against armor now
idk about being weak to crossfire when she can easily reposition herself & she has the best peel game of all the tanks so going for her ain’t exactly easy, also there’s still the matter of the beam heroes being pretty weak, and melee isn’t even a counter.
Most of them yes, but not ana, also I was more referring to the likes of bastion and co having their effectiveness against tank gutted because of the armor changes.
The problem with this balance philosophy is that they’re balancing Tanks and Supports around the Damage role when the opposite needs to happen.
Remember, the biggest issue with 6v6 is not balance, it is queue times. The goal should be to make the Tank and Support roles more attractive options to OW2 players than they were in OW1. You don’t do that by hard-nerfing both roles (in comparison to OW1).
The goal should be to convince some Damage players to switch to queueing for Tank and Support in a 6v6, 2-2-2 environment. You don’t do that with nerfs. This is what Blizzard is inevitably going to do with any implementation of 6v6 of their own (because they have to) and it’s why the 6v6 community is never going to be happy, even if they get the format they want.
Yep, they could also kill things in 1~2 seconds. If not less when the two got layered with damage boosts. (On a side note it was originally 3 seconds, then got power shifted in favor of missiles)
it was not hard to get in get kills with the bubble up long enough to space out mobility tools, the push again/leave after the fact depending on the scenario.
While the normal tools that are used to peel them individually don’t work on them as a pair to stop them from doing that.
Like current winstons barrier is only up a second longer or so these days under fire, be it that their is a lot of room for him to just not have the bubble shot at all. Be it their is nothing stopping hog from going whole hog into it, and breaking it in 2 seconds or so.
So d.va yes, everyone else not so much. 6v6 tanks were balanced around their pairings, do to their meta relevance. And lost a lot of solo power, and a lot of influence in 1v1 matchups over time.
Like people were abondoning the tank role in mass, and spilling into the dps/support if not just leaving the game outright for a reason now.
And when d.va was effectively the best character in the game with the last OWL 6v6 league having a 80% overall pickrate on her between all heroes.
Most left tank in OW1, that’s why we had such a large que issue. OW2 didn’t bring them back, but it doesn’t matter at that point do to role distrubtion per team taking that into account.
Can’t say that’s a common occurrence in ranks were doom doesn’t burn all of his cooldowns right off the back. Especially when you have two support tools at any given time to bail him out from that.
Unless he was already low dude would get up at the first bit of damage and fly away.
That and you have to look away from the rest of the enemy team shooting at you to pull that off.
???
so the change bumps up the minimal damage threshold on armor from 5 to 10, anything that does 10 or less damage is now cut in half.
It is a nerf to hereos armor was already strong against like tracer/reaper/soldier/orisa/d.va. But like you wouldn’t be using those heroes to attack armor pulls primarily and better suited for picking off the dps/supports. Then coming back around to the tanks.
(Yes reaper isn’t a tank buster hasn’t been in a long while. )
Meanwhile you have a whole host of dps/tanks/ supports that do burst damage and ultimately doing only 5 less damage per hit then normal. If not just ult combo’s that still nuke the tanks outright.
a little emp/d.va bomb, grav/dragons, orisa pull into blizzard.
TLDR please in the name of Jeffy boy him self, shoot something other then the horse (tank) for two seconds. you have direct access to the other dps/supports in most cases.
She can only do that once every 4 seconds, you can easily pump 200~400+ damage into that time frame from a single hero. Spread out bit from your team so you can hit her from mulitple angles. Or shoot around her to just smack her team directly.
The armor changes didn’t effect beams, that as mentioned you better off using those to tools to shoot her team not the d.va directly. Like mei’s beam has a peirce effect for a reason now.
Also rien charge is alike a hard anti-d.va dive tool, as long as your team is with you. D.va can’t directly engage them without eating 350 damage + a rien swing.
Ana is still strong my guy, your self were promoting that just a moment ago.
So for starters most tanks would bait the transformation push in a bit dip around a corner then push out. if not directly focus fire/cc/hack/ the bastion right off the back or abuse his low mobility to kill with bomb.
As orisa it’s pretty easy to throw a spear at him waddle a round a corner with spin, then push back in second or so latter after you let your gun cooldown and recharge your short cooldowns.
Or if he is already low health, just push into him and do a wall impact damage combo while under fortify or setup with spin.
d.va does the same with missiles + DM.
You’re kind overreacting with the balance here, those roles will remain strong, and they were by no means weak in ow1.
You convince damage players to play the other roles by making more dps esque heroes in the other roles, which is pretty much all they’ve done for ow2, bar lw. It also didn’t help that dps had 3x times the number of characters the other two roles had, and tank having an extremely unaccessible character(ball) and an extremely boring character (old orisa(though I do kinda miss hult)).
Yes, they could get a kill within 1-2 seconds, yes, they could cover each other’s weaknesses, but that would require you a lot of precision and outplaying to win the interaction, there are so many variables that go into each individual interaction in the team fights that it’s just not use op combo and win.
Everyone else were also strong on their own, if they were so reliant on pairings, they would have 1-2 top tier pairings instead of the 3-5 they each actually had and more combos would have been considered throwing, but in reality, it was only like 2(4 if you want to push) pairings out of the like 24 total overwatch 1 tank pairings that were kinda considered throwing.
d.va was one of the best characters in owl, but then again, owl played very differently from ladder, for example ladder could not play the brig zen core that went so well with the dominant dive comp at the time, there just wasn’t enough coordination for that.
The main reason people stopped playing tank in overwatch 1 was because the devs refused to address pain points and then put the game into maintenance mode, a lot of those changes, like the ones to CC we wouldn’t see till ow2.
ow2 also has the problem of tank being a very unwelcoming and unappealing role to play for the most part, we aren’t gaining any tank players is what I mean.
Depends on how many people is looking at him when he gets slept tbh, but it is possible to go from full to 0 with enough people.
But like that’s a problem, the tank are so tanky thanks to all the new changes that shooting them is just straight up a waste of time, in ow1 you could farm ult charge or actually kill them with enough damage. Now they’re just something you as the DPS have to ignore if you want to get value, your options have been limited.
200-400 is a bit generous, she’d have been healed of that pretty quickly anyway.
They suck because they’re horrible at dueling which is all dps is good for now a days, maybe you can justify using mei with a rein.
but like she can fairly easily just dodge the pin all together with boosters assuming she even comes into position to be pinned
yeah, but she had to be nerfed so much because of the format change, and people still hate her.
Yeah, bastion’s pretty bad rn, but he was kinda good at dissuading dive, especially winston, now he can’t even do that.
No. The number of available heroes is not the issue. Ask yourself: there were more Tanks than Supports in Overwatch 1, so why were there fewer Tank players? The answer is because the role wasn’t fun - the number of heroes is largely irrelevant. The same applies to 5v5 (where Tank and Support have a roughly equal number of heroes yet there are still fewer Tank players) and it will apply to both Tank and Support in any form of 6v6 where both roles are still outnumbered by Damage.
Again, you don’t encourage people to switch from Damage to Tank/Support by making the other roles weaker (and therefore, less fun) than they were the last time this exact thing was attempted. And yet you have to encourage people to make this switch if you’re going to keep queue times down.
I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind, I’m telling you how Blizzard are going to approach this and why you’re not going to like their 2-2-2 balance (if they go that direction). They have a playerbase to maintain which means keeping queue times low by keeping Tank/Support players happy.
Only way to fix overwatch at this point is to either remove the tank role, bring back 6v6 or somehow make a two tank meta be a thing through a different system that isn’t role queue (think something like Paladins pick/ban system). Solo tanking will always be garbage especially if you solo queue.
We can’t just dismiss there being less tank & support heroes as a non issue.
Again, I don’t think this is what’s happening here I think tank and support will remain strong.
I really don’t expect much from, they’re probably going to have a horrible first playtest, I can look back to this post as an “I told you so” moment if things go sour though.