My experience of 222 RQ, as a metal rank miracle, was that if someone picked a character like Ball or Hog - especially Hog - then it’s the other tank that takes the brunt of the enemy team’s ire. As time went on and Orisa got more and more nerfs, she was left in a state where she wasn’t up to being a substitute for Sigma at the level which I play. If anything, she became largely dependent on him. I understand that higher ranks could pull off Orisa + D.Va but for me, that wasn’t reliable because D.Va is not an easy character.
This looks like repeating history to me. Ram looks like he loses far more than he gains here. If I’m stuck with a Hog or Mauga, am I going to be able to play as Ram? No, it’s going to be miserable compared to rolling out as Sigma and actually being able to act while mitigating, which is what I’m going to have to do since hell is going to be rained down on me. JQ’s a better siuation, but is JQ shout going to compensate for the nerfs? I doubt it, except possibly on select maps like Lijang (inside).
So if I played this patch then I imagine my playtime would be mostly Sigma, because I’ll remain sane with a non-mitigating teammate when facing off against a similar comp.
This patch reads like it was put together by silver players. It’s extremely biased and shows a complete lack of understanding of just about every hero and role in the game. The tanks in general are a complete mess and many are actually in the worst shape they’ve ever been. That’s the weakest D.Va since the f-tier launch D.Va. Ram is treated very unfairly while Rein is obviously favored. It’s absolutely worse than the actual devs ever did.
Like you said, if this is what it looks like to go back, I don’t want to.
It really didn’t, even then they should be doing that regardless. the “flankers” like tracer genji and the like, can just do that through and around the enemy team without need of the extra walls and corners the map allows. Everyone else have tools that
Like just waiting 5 seconds for it to kick in, and only getting lucio like heals from that point on is a waist of time. As health packs that sit around the same flanks will do the job quite a be quicker and instantly restore 75~250 hp. And can heal you while taking damage.
If any one is just camping out of the to heal like that then you have a hundred and one tools to go chase them down or do damage around corners that will keep out of play for the whole duration of a given team fight.
like it takes about 10 seconds or so to heal up from half health, and that’s after the the 5 second wait.
Exactly, Because they kind of just removed reaper from the game at that point.
It does not, because if their under fire. it will never kick in. If your doing just chip damage that takes longer then double most peoples reload between hits, that’s an issue of you not engaging correctly more so then anything with the cooldown.
For my team sure, not the other 12 games worth teams that being denied any sort of impact to play. And limiting amount of heroes that can do anything to my comp, to a hand full of ult combo’s that winston d.va couldn’t deny easily and other dive heroes.
Like it was just heavily one sided doubly so If I was on the attacking team that just needed to win 2~4 fights.
TLDR just like the days you can just deny half the cast from doing anything of note.
We seem to have had different experiences cause like I’d just go what I want in 6v6, it’s more in 5v5 where I feel like there are characters that I HAVE to go because it’s just an uphill battle otherwise.
I’m not sure I can convince you that the nerfs aren’t that bad, you can try the mode if you want though so it isn’t just all theory we’re doing.
Keep in mind that blizzard would do a pretty different patch compared to what the workshop devs did, ram probably doesn’t lose his speed in the blizzard patch.
Mainly I want them to look at the things I highlighted to actually be problematic in 6v6 in my post and be ready to balance for that.
Yes, because they were designed to do that. Other characters were not. A character like Pharah or echo could just hide and regen somewhere hard to reach and continue to harass the enemy team endlessly.
Which is entirely dependent on where you are flanking from. Most 250 HP packs are in relatively open and easily accessible areas, making it impossible for non-flankers to survive an ambush. If you’re relying on mini’s, that’s far less HP being restored and it’s more than likely still going to get you killed since it’s still out in the open.
Not to mention that, pairing health packs with the healing passive makes the whole process go by way faster while simultaneously topping you off to 100% HP. It is far more effective at keeping you alive with good uptime.
And if they position well like on that elevated platform inside Lijiang Tower? There’s nothing you can do except make it a 5v4 while you waste time going up their to chase them. By the time you get up to them, they’ve already healed and had plenty of time to prepare/harass your team.
The backline is the most secure place on the battlefield. It takes a tremendous amount of effort to get there, meaning you only get glimpses of it throughout the fight. Not to mention the tanks have ways of stopping you from even poking the Supports, let alone a well positioned Support who knows how to use natural cover to break LoS.
I believe it’s 2.5 seconds for their passive to kick in, so they heal extraordinarily fast in comparison to everyone else.
Yep, pretty much. They refuse to address the issue of his lifesteal and damage being tethered to each other, so it’s going to remain this way for the foreseeable future.
How to say you didn’t bother reading everything in one line.
In other news:
EVERY HERO CAN USE THE FLANKS
Their is nothing gate keeping you from walking in those.
This is a waist of time. those two are mobile enough to pick up a mega health pack long before that self heal kicks in. Or move back to that their supports.
OW is way to fast for that to be kicking in.
How to say you don’t actually use the flanks in one line of dialog. Open up watch point gibraltar and look at where all the mega’s are, you will fine almost all of them to be well set aside on the flanks.
So you can take the fight elsewere were they can’t see you. You don’t have to play in their LOS, you can use flank to just attack the rest of the enemy team behind them, or from the room underneath that elevated platform get your tank to cap then go chase after him latter.
Or just pick one like the dozen + different heroes that can just get up their. Like pharah/junk/d.va/sombra/genji/kiriko/ wisnton/ ball.
or anyone that has tools that are long range and or have no fall-off like projectile heroes.
You get a widow or a mei on the bit of highground you access via outdoor flank, that has a mega health pack. And you golden to contest their.
That isn’t really an issue usually.
Sorry what I can’t hear you, I just walled my self to the highground and sunk and icle into to your ana’s head.
No no sorry I blinked in their from a flank a one clipped your zen.
Oh my bad I took the same position as the mei with kiriko and just did the same thing to your moria.
I can’t beleive I mixed that up! I was actually flank hog that just pulled you bapt into water.
I did. I even specified later that those heroes do not have sufficient tools to flank. A Cassidy does not have ways to escape if he’s caught alone in the enemy backline. Not having to go for health packs alleviates this issue massively.
Like I said in my previous response, they have to go to a health pack or leave their safe space and risk being intercepted along the way in order to do that (if my clarifications weren’t clear enough).
In very vulnerable and easy to access routes. One being next to attacker spawn, one being trapped in an inlet by a staircase right outside of the payload’s main path, and the final one being, again, in a corner next to a staircase right out in the middle of the open.
I also know all the mini’s for that map too and any map for that matter, in case you were wanted to question the extent of my knowledge again.
This is only an available option for long ranged characters, seeing as you have to capture the point right below that perch.
Again, another reason that removes value from short range heroes because nuisance heroes can just camp eternally with 0 risk. This does nothing, but promote bad/one-sided gameplay loops.
Bad positioning, easily avoidable
Character who was capable of doing that regardless. Not to mention requires all of her utility to do (unless she has the advantage of passive healing, in which case she can just escape and camp in the backline again)
Horrendous positioning. Leaving yourself, as a support for your team, entirely exposed and out of position. Not to mention, losing focus on your team for the time required to do so, leaving them in a bad position too.
Just hiding out like that creates a 4v5 scenario for at least 10+ seconds or in another words might as well be dead and waiting out the resond timer and keeps your supports from being able to get to.
This is F-tier trash, and falls apart the moment you someone actively attempt to push you.
Doesn’t need to escape, just not push in a scenario where I fight greater then a 1v1/2 would breakout.
As flank as your team is pushing, which even the likes of tracer/genji and the likes have to do anyway. Or otherwise pushing into a 5v1 scenario.
Also he has a very strong tool to hit people that push into him.
In other news flanks also lead highground and loop back around to the main objective and other locations.
Believe it or not, being directly behind the enemy where no-one is look at you allowing your time to set up kills or land a headshot to start a fight off with is rather strong.
???
Their in rooms with only one or two paths to access them with LOS breaks to the main fight.
Yes anyone can push into them, but also the point of flanks to be accessible by everyone and used by such.
Ya no your missing 2 or 3 of them.
And being close to the fight is a good thing so you can hold those positions.
Can’t, you need los to your team to do things as any support outside of like the odd second of mercy heals staing connected around walls. Their are not many spots for heroes like ana to stand that has LOS to one end and not the other. And those are mostly corners with flanks slapped right next to them.
You have really easy access to anyones back line via LOS on highground or just using the flanks built into the game.
You most have really bad aim, or don’t know how to engage properly. Because fight should end in one of you two dying. Not any of this poke and run away and come back latter sort of junk.
like living is important, but also fights are going to begin with mostly full health pulls unless everyone is actively committed to another engagement.
The ability to heal where ever has been apart of the game since release, and any scenario where you disengage for longer then 2~5 seconds is one where that player is going get healing from the other other support in most cases. Or one where they touch a health pack.
Mei wall doesn’t have a lot of use in long range fights, epecially right of the back in the games opening.
Like it’s waisting tools if it ultimately is getting me and my team kills.
ahaha like that is apoint at all.
And from their it’s just mostly mobility / and kill tools that can be applied at basically any range.
There’s a lot the enemy team could have done though, there isn’t much that’s straight up unplayable into that comp, and since stacks get matched into stacks they could have also worked together to win, yall must have had the better teamwork. Even with a non-synergistic team they could have won making their individual heroes work with enough skill.
you missed this
"damage
Healing reduction inflicted on hit removed."
The DPS passive is just gone, mainly because it makes balancing easier I believe.
The old tools that kept in check were removed from the game.
While having all the upsides of the comp basically intact.
Mei can’t touch either tank while winston bubble is up, ana is just chew toy for dm+missiles and winston’s tesla, Barriers are just ignored in favor of tools that ignore or move around them, any one like hog/mauga that wants to push into the winston bubble will be cut off from healing and will get discord/mercy boosted into oblivion. If not just be an easy nade/sleep target.
Most cooldown based heroes like hanzo / echo are easily managed by dm or just disengaging in case of echo beam.
Torb sym are just recked by the tanks as always.
Ye hit scanners are just not going to have much to hit, be it the winston bubble or mobile heroes just engaging in close range combat with tools that will force them to be doing 180’s at every opportunity.
Any tank that isn’t mobile, can just be ignored and saved for latter, if not just focused fired with tools like winston beam that ignore barriers/armor/grasp, while slapped with a pulse bomb or hack.
While EMP/d.va bomb kind of just… cheses 6v6 comps, because everyone is just pressed up against their tanks. that can’t do anything now. so… PFtt.
We barley said a word to each other about the game, and were mostly just BS over comps we really only needed the basic understanding of “Monkey jumps first, D.va follows and focus fires with monkey/peels for him” And then ping things that seem low on health.
Zen was throwing stuff at the enemy tanks regardless, the flankers/snipers did their own thing. And mercy just did mercy things.
Sombra I pushes confirm ult button, d.va hits confirm ult button. And they do the thing post throwing d.va bomb.
it’s honestly not a hard comp in the communication department.
Most of the work is done at the hero select screen because their isn’t much the enemy can do to get around it without also going dive like the old days.
They are absolutely not. Any wise enough player will track you down to the health pack before you can reach because it was the only option you had. It is almost exclusively in spots where both teams are equal distance away from it (barring a few exceptions).
If you’re playing poorly, yes it would take you nearly 10 seconds to regen your health from 0. That doesn’t matter though if you only take chip damage and peek at the most opportune times.
And now you’re the one not reading. Going to health packs is entering a 1v1 scenario.
Also you would be stuck in what ever position you were in when you get shot with no way to leave nor anyway recover health. Like that is a massive disadvantage that is instantly removed with the passive HP regen. This is objective.
Also doesn’t matter that he has flashbang, since he’s entering a fight with less HP. The other person also has abilities they can use.
Again, ignoring what I previously stated about how long it takes to get to these secure spots.
Which is why they are terrible to use in a pinch for characters not designed for flanking (even characters who are designed for flanking struggle to get out alive more than half the time).
Right, one in the pit under high ground at first point and one by the path of payload on third point. Not really on the flanks, imo, but I guess.
Only a few seconds are needed outside of LoS, in which you have a second support to help you stall. Not to mention that you can just tell your team to fall back for healing or ping that you need assistance.
It is a team-wide responsibility, which is why the backline is always the safest place to be. If anything goes wrong, your team is right there, capable of doing what’s necessary to keep each other alive.
Supports are designed to survive. They have several self-defense tools built into their kit and provide insane sustain healing that most times outpaces the damage being dealt. That’s if they don’t kill you before you can engage.
Not to mention, you are alone in the enemy backline playing the lowest HP hero in the game.
Also surviving flanks requires you to be in the best position for escape. If you get forced out in the direction of a mini instead of a mega, you’re stuck in a bad spot with less than maximum HP, easily susceptible to ambushes without the ability to reposition to a better spot because you’re being chained to that mini.
This was directed at Tracer, not Mei.
It is. Tanks have far more health (though it would be quite stupid to push past the frontline just for one Ana) and can survive big bursts of damage.
I also don’t see a situation where hog is flanking that’s also not considered throwing.
So I would like to point out something fundamentally wrong with your understanding about the game.
You do not play for poke damage, you don’t “out live” your opponent. You learn your characters ideal ranges, and how to follow through with kills. And pick targets that you can push into and secure such.
You should be able to consistently get in get your pick and leave in the second or two your heroes kits allow. Then get out or move to the next target.
Anything that isn’t doing that will be healed off, and feeding enemy supports ults.
Flanks enable you to have positions that ignore the front line and you access to dps/supports almost immediately. While other players other your team push down main or around a different flank if they didn’t join you.
“whines about people hiding way for the length of your average respawn to self heal” "Complains that going for health pack isn’t safe because people will track you down in the few seconds it takes. "
As if you can’t also chase down the low health heroes that are attempting to hide away from the fight and will continue to be low health for very long amounts of time.
That’s seme backwards logic you have their my guy.
I mean if your talking chip damage, a split second mercy /moria/kiri heal, or just bapt/lucio/brig existing would do the same.
Like your forgetting your team exists, let a lone the plenty full amount of small health packs all over the place.
My guy that’s not how flanks works, they have at least two entrances / exists and many have more so. And you start with the advantage of surprise and should be able to just get off a clean shot and start a fight in an advantage state.
The enemy will not immediately know your their unless your doing nothing but walking into that flank and even then their is other players that can keep their attention or force them commit into another combat scenario.
if you feel like the enemy team is to close to that flank you can choose to not engage, and back up and push from a different angle. If not set up an ambush for like the one guy that’s actively pushing you at you. Use the moment to break Los and pre aim at head level to get that quickkill in. Or be ready for cooldowns.
like Yes you should be able consistently win 1v1, especially if you know that where and what is coming after you.
ahah oh now your time sensitive as if waiting out 5 seconds to heal chip damage is an ideal strat. But taking that time to get into a better postion, no no no no thats to much.
I don’t understand why you’re pointing out the first section.
As for the second section, that’s not how that works on most heroes. Only hyper-mobile heroes benefit from being able to get in and out without repercussions. It is incredibly dependent on the kit being geared towards an assassin-esque playstyle.
These go hand in hand. When you hide in the enemy backline, you don’t have to go back through the risky path again like you would if you were coming back from spawn. You skip that whole part just by being in a hard to reach place.
Also, if you don’t make it to where they are within 5 seconds of them being shot (or 2.5 for supports), the advantage is already in effect, regardless of how small it may be. Not to mention that they have 5 seconds to go into the most inopportune position for you to engage them in, since they will begin healing regardless of position.
They could easily run away from where they were to somewhere new without risking going into that no-mans-land where the health packs are. They don’t have to sit in place.
One requires you to have a teammate and they other one doesn’t. The advantage would be noticeable immediately if you were to compare the two.
Flank routes can provide you a few options, but most of the time, the enemy team is in the direction of the one you’ve just engaged from. That results in either pushing deeper into the enemy’s territory or falling backwards to your own side through exposed pockets between both teams.
This also isn’t the only way to engage the enemy team’s backline. You can off-angle pretty much anywhere when you don’t have to rely on clear paths to health packs. Meaning you can skip the usage of flank routes entirely.
Clean shots are also character dependent. This only works if you have a way to reach them from a distance without alerting them to your presence.
I can’t really tell what I’m supposed to gather from this.
You’ve effectively wasted however much time it took you to get into position all for nothing then. Not engaging is not an option once you’ve committed. Same with stalling and waiting for an ambush, since they can easily wipe your team while your standing still doing nothing.
Pushing to a location and being in a location while waiting are two separate things. You’re not crossing no-mans-land if you’re already in that secure location, so you’re not risking dying just to get to that advantageous spot.
What I think is crazy, is that while the balance isn’t stellar, and I would handle it differently, it’s still way more fun than current 5v5. I guess that just shows how much easier it is to make the 6v6 format more enjoyable. Higher HP tends to exacerbate issues that would otherwise not be as glaring.
Overall, I think these guys have been doing a fantastic job, all things considered!
Because your so dead set of the healing passive being an issue that your ignoring the core gameplay loop. And how that just ignores any benefit the passive would give you, because you engage and either you or they are dead. And the winner is going to heal off anyway, be it support, or health pack. The passive is mostly acting as a fall-back and way to keep the supports from having to baby sit everyone post fight. Theirs never been a scenario where the enemy really sustains long term chip damage.
That and you don’t seem confident in doing anything by your self, and seem to consider 1v1’s a death sentence for some reason.
First of “flankers” have mobility tools that let just engage nearly every they want in a fight.
And in many cases don’t even to use flanks to do so, As they can also push with the tank, then use mobility to get at the enemy when their close enough to do so.
The flanks themselves are just a method to get anyone around a given choke or corner, to force attention away from a single point.
Just by flanking your not only are you able to get shots off before the enemy has a chance to notice you. But your also pulling aggro away from your team. Which will in turn open room for them to position around the enemy but to focus fire on target that are now paying attention on to you, and not another hero.
Also note not all flanks have a variety of exits in many cases that lead to various different bits of back or highground. And have corners that break away from LOS or lead to health packs to sustain so support can focus on the other heroes.
My guy every point of the map is easy to get to get to, your example of say the tower map. Has multiple different paths that either give access to that bit of highground or direct LOS to it.
let alone the large variety of heroes that can simple use mobility to get their outright.
Or heck just ignore them, and for the large of chunk of time their gone. Kill something else.
if you position right it should take 1~3 seconds or so to do that on any given target that isn’t the tank.
Oh no they healed 30~70 health because it took me (checks notes) roughly 10 seconds to get at them, shame as a dps/support/tank don’t have tools that just do bursts of 80~130 damage at a time and are still catch them with less then full health, meaning I still have an objective advantage.
on top of the fact that most locations on the map are interconnected, so I probably have different paths to them.
Also my guy people in flanks can be hard to get at to, especially if their on the high ground and have access to health packs to just immediately reset.
my guy the most of health packs are tucked away out of the fight, off into odd rooms were fights don’t often break out with.
You just have some pretty bad understanding of where they are how to position around them.
Before discussing this further, I want to ask how this team comp was a 6v6 issue? You can still do use it in 5v5 except with 1 tank that’s now the strength of two tanks. You can still get a group of players together to make a strong synergistic comp, you can still play as a team to outwit the enemy team, the team comp you mentioned isn’t even a perfect dive comp imo. But also, why are we arguing against all this in a team game where all of this is meant to be a big appeal to the game?
Counter play/picks don’t work in 6v6. as two tanks have a habbit of covering their weaknesses. In their specific pairings.
A d.va under winston barrier, doesn’t have to worry about cross fire or beams directly engaging her. It also allows her to save DM for key cooldowns/ults, just general damage mitigation after it falls, or to peel heroes like reaper/torb/hog off of the winston.
Which in turn covers basically everything winston has to worry about, and gives him a lot of up time to keep attacking and stall out his next bit of mobility. Which they cycle out and push back in with tools refreshed.
in 5v5, d.va still has all the specifically designed weaknesses that she is forced to play around. With some help from the supports but those burn out rather quickly compared to a whole second tank kit.
A hog is a scary thing to a winston in 5v5, in 6v6 d.va makes that interaction extremely safe regardless of what the enemy does to set hog up.