How do we feel about a Widowmaker rework?

Just because you respawn doesn’t mean one-shots are healthy. Sure, you respawn but you’ve already lost the team fight, so who cares?

As for games in which you don’t respawn, oneshots are often more key to the game. Rainbow six siege was mentioned earlier. In that game everyone can one shot. Everyone. The difference is the player skill. One shots are woven into the foundations of the game. This isn’t the case with Overwatch. Overwatch is built around long team fights and we know this because we have tanks and supports whose entire function only exists to create extended team fights. In such a game, one shot mechanics are very powerful, and need to be balanced with draw backs.

Let’s look at other one shots. Self Destruct. Anyone complaining about self Destruct one shots? No. Why not? Well, because it’s a highly telegraphed ability that is tied to an ultimate so it comes up rarely and has significantly counter play. Also, she has just jumped out of the mech, temporarily taking her out of the game leaving her vulnerable to kills or to being cced out of her call mech.

OK, what about Rocket Punch? Well, it’s a tad more contentious but still mostly accepted. Why is that? Well, it’s is also telegraphed as it can be heard half way across the map. It also has a long cast time and leaves Doom vulnerable for the duration, so he can be stunned or slept or the teammate can be protected. It also puts Doom into the whole enemy team, so it carries risks, and is tied to a cooldown. Risk, reward, and cooldown keep this one shot in check.

Widow? Hitscan shot that oneshots most of the cast with no telegraphing, a tiny cooldown if we even count the spool up time as a cooldown and no risk. She sits half way across the map, out of everyone’s effective range and has a shorter ttk than everyone she fights against.

These 3 one shot abilities are not equal. I’ve noticed you like to use the word disingenuous, and that’s exactly what your claim that people objecting to Widows oneshot is just anti-one-shot rhetoric is.

The most similar to Widow is Hanzo, who has one shots with basically no cooldown, but he at least has to deal with drop off and travel time, and his ability to escape isn’t quote as strong. He has a lunge and his wall climb, but Widows Grapple is much faster. Also, while Widow is grappling high into the air, she can shoot back but Hanzo can only shoot back during his short lunge and not while wall climbing. Also, Hanzos hitbox is a lot more forgiving.

So, ultimately, Widows oneshots lack proper counter play. She can distance herself from flankers through grapple. Firstly leaving herself harder to access, but also pulling herself into the air to temporarily separate the two players and give herself an easier shot. Her shots aren’t governed by a proper cooldown, aren’t telegraphed, and are very consistent, being a Hitscan shot. The only counter play is to have a a better play use the same character and beat her at her own game. Overpowered or not, this is just bad hero design, and that alone warrants a rework.

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Not needed. She has a good niche.
Especially right now she’s good on long range maps but not good when easily engaged which is good for her power level

How when she plays by herself and doesn’t need a team to enable her? She doesn’t even play with them, she just stands by herself. She absolutely goes against everything the game is about.

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Tactical shooters include combat realism. In REAL combat you can’t take 30 bullets to the chest, in real combat you can’t just “get heals.” Overwatch isn’t a tactical shooter, stop being ignorant.

If you can’t make sense of that^ and what you quoted of me, then you’re just being blatantly ignorant. I don’t know how many more times, or in how many other ways it needs to be said.

Overwatch IS NOT a tactical shooter.

TREB, Ok bud. You thought I used contention one way, I told you I didn’t.

Don’t start twisting my words bruv. I said contentions in this context…

And proceeded to tell you exactly what it meant

Don’t twist my words. Just stop.

Unfortunately, i’m not the one with the circular logic issue here. Ana is a sniper in both lore and functionality. Denying both of those things and saying “she’s not a sniper because she doesnt one shot” says to me all you care about is the 1 shot not the lore, rifle and scope and therefore “Hanzo is a sniper”. Your logic is “snipers 1 shot” when Ana cannot 1 shot and widow does not 1 shot Rein.

Widow could be a very effective sniper if she did 99% health damage.

Yup, 100% behind increasing the investment through more dangerous positioning (rein charge), teamwork (mercy boost/discord) or ability cooldown use (rein charge)

Cool, 2-3 second cooldown where you have to tag the target you want to kill while not scoped and it informs the enemy player they’ve been targeted.

The biggest problem isn’t when she one shots squishes, it’s when she two shots nearly all tanks…

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I had in mind before to give her a rifle similar to Ashes rifle but then they released Ashe lol

She doesn’t play by herself and does need a team to enable her.

She does play with them, she only stands by herself, she absolutely goes with everything the game is about which of course allows one hero to be physically displaced from teammates.

Ana is not a sniper in functionality.

Her rifle does not function as a sniper rifle.

It LOOKS like a sniper rifle, but in lore and in function it’s a dart gun.

The lore says what Ana used to have.

The lore establishes that Ana has a different weapon now, a dart gun.

Widow could never be remotely effective if she could never do 100% health damage.

No, 2-3 seconds to buff yourself to do sufficient damage, even to a target you haven’t seen yet.

What an obvious attempt to make the hero completely worthless guaranteeing that the hero will be utterly useless.

So not only can you avoid taking any damage but when you do you’re guaranteed to stay alive to easily step into cover as it’s easier to move into cover at longer ranges.

I mean ok you’re just saying the literal opposite of what I’m saying. Maybe don’t act petty and admit I’m right?

Yeah and only one of us can be right.

Denials are weak, people are idiots and have an inclination to believe claims and not care when people say “no that’s wrong”.

I’m playing by the exact same rules as you, you are making claims and I am making claims. You want to be the only one making claims and nothing but weak denials in contrast.

What a fair game you’ve devised, heads you win, tails I lose.

That is petty.

Here’s a suggestion
Widow’s Kiss:
Maximum charged scoped damage reduced from 120 to 100.
Added bullet drop
Bullets are now a projectile with 350 projectile speed

Thoughts?

Bullet drop should not be a lot fyi, that would make widowmaker weird to play

I like the creativity, but it’s just overall a worse addition. Less damage, and it’s a projectile? Most people wouldn’t be ok with it is all. But it’s creative :ok_hand:

Less damage but still oneshots <250 hp heroes, just slightly less effective against tanks who can’t reach her in the first place.
Falloff could also be a tuned a bit

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  • Ana’s sniper rifle has long range zoom capability, is hitscan when zoomed and leaves a white trail in the air instead of a red one.
  • Lore is that Ana is a sniper, the type of payload that goes in her gun doesn’t change this.
  • Widow would still be extremely effective if she had to pick targets on under 100% health - it would just require her to work with her team more (teamwork requirement = higher investment).
  • What does your “buff your damage to extremes on a 2-3 second cooldown” idea fix?
  • My idea solves the issue of getting 1 shot out of nowhere - the widow doesnt have to use the ability and can stay hidden. Another solution would be to put a huge sniper glare or laser on the end of her rifle.

What are your ideas for making Widow’s 1 shots higher investment?

Dont make up scenarios where everytime Widow headshots someone is an entry frag.
Sometimes it will, sometimes it wont.

You dont lose team fights for that, not at all. Not in Overwatch at least, in this universe and pretending otherwise is disingenuous (yeah I used it again). Widow can literally oneshot someone and then half your team die to a Dive comp, GGs, you got your entry frag and you still lost the fight.

This is an objective based game and “pure fragging” will not yield you the points, you have to Hold/Capture the points. Widow is just 1 player out of 6 and there are plenty of counters to that, just like most maps have different routes and chokepoints are the exception, not the rule.

False, that is a HARDCORE strawman.
My whole stance is that “I dont like being 1 tapped” is not a reason to nerf widow at all. That seems to be the only reason given by this 2 dudes and unless something else is brought up, that is not a valid reason to nerf widow, specially leaving Hanzo as it is.

Dont twist my words, its not going to work, ok?. Cool :sunglasses:

Stop making up definitions and adding things to it because you already lost the debate and have NOTHING besides “I dont like being 1 tapped”. The word “tactical” has meaning and overwatch requires plenty of it.
You can argue all you want that OW is not as realistic (of course, its SCI-FI) as Rainbow6 or Counterstrike, but that doesnt make it less tactical.

Also, it doesnt matter how many times you repeat it, even if you were right … still means nothing. There are many oneshots and many killer combos in this game that leave you ZERO time to react, they are still balanced. So quit running around and ANSWER the question:
Give a VALID reason why this hero with potential one-shotting hitscan should be reworked

Again, for the hundred gazillion time: Different forms of “I dont like being 1 tapped” do NOT count. Not arguing semantics or running around anymore dude, any more name calling or zero substance posts will be ignored.

Personally I don’t think she needs any rework…
Especially not one that will take away her personality.

Widowmaker without one shots is pretty much Ashe.
Aoe explosion? mine vs dynamite
Primary fire? Scop and spam for both
Mobility? Grapple vs coach gun.
Only the ultimate is different.

They’re not the same but they function fairly similar…

I think the best way to fix her is by 2 fixes.

  1. Add new support to counter her while buffing shields. (Healing is worthless against one shots but utility isn’t, new utilities to help with her damage should be amazing)
  2. You can’t expect a normal fps character that can deal with every situation to be balanced in a game where heroes like Bastion or Reaper for example can only be good on their range…
  • Return her hp back to 200
  • Grapple hook breaks from damage.
  • Grapple hook coldown reduced from 12 down to 8.

That will make her weaker to dive while being more balanced against anything else. If so many heroes in the game relies on shields and healing no reason for widow who already uses less healing and protection to rely more on anti divers in her team. Which she already synergy pretty well with (Hog & Torb for example)

Reworking one shots out of the game would definitely be a thing for OW2. It may be necessary judging by Rein’s 800hp barrier, and possible 5v5 speculation.

I’d rather keep 12 second grapple then have this. This would make the ability useless and feel bad to use. This feels really drastic.

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None of that matters, that’s called “Gish Galloping” it’s when someone makes a vast number of arguments where each argument is obviously and transparently weak but to the casual laymen the sheer volume of points appeals to the inclination “well they can’t ALL be irrelevant”.

But it is all nothing.

It’s all presuppositional.

One shot snipers aren’t unacceptable in almost every other multiplayer shooter ever made, it’s frankly embarrassing that it’s only unacceptable for this one game for no valid reason.

I don’t think you’d be interested, it would be based on looking at how other sniper type classes in other games work but you are fundamentally opposed to the very concept of a sniper as the concept of a type of (playable) character in a video game.

You want them to completely lose their element of surprise AND their ability to eliminate with one shot which just makes them a worse version of Ashe.

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