How do we feel about a Widowmaker rework?

General Discussion
152

Can be blocked, requires much more aim which makes it fairly bad for dive.
It’s good against Doomfist and Hammond but the rest can easily play around it.

Can be destroyed, swallowed or deflected. Not to mention Junkrat needs to be in medium range for value so he either survives or puts damage from a range he can be chased. Not to mention he has more than enough other counters from other roles…

Mercy needs to be close to her target for healing anyways… She doesn’t utilize the range and guardian angle can actually be used against her while diving a target she heals.

It’s a good stalling. But you don’t run anywhere. You can still be chased after the duration ends and while it’s on you provide no damage as well.

Can be deflected or blocked, not to mention it pushes much less than Widowmaker’s grapple distance meaning she can’t go down and coach gun back to high ground.

He’s a diver, sounds fair the mobile heroes who want to commit and risk their lives would have an escape tool considering they are the ones who responsible for that state and they rely on their mobility.

Only pushes 5-10 meters away and Brigitte doesn’t have the range to put pressure while booping you away.

Fair, but moira was made to counter dive. her fade is very weak to brawl and poke. She deserves to have something for dive.

Same as Lucio… Divers need their mobility for both attacking and running away. You can’t expect a hero to throw itself in the front with consistent damage without a way to reduce punishment considering he’s the one responsible for that.

Same as the other divers…

Only 7.85 meters leap… Wall climb is slower and closer. If you push Hanzo away from high ground he can’t really do anything about it… You can put pressure on him while climbing.

Hanzo is also weak to long range and has projectiles which are much easier to react to.

~7.2 meters, he supposed to counter dive and has more than enough brawl and poke counters.

A diver…

Weak to knockback and aoe which is something most divers have.

Diver…

That’s not a really a fair comparison.

Heroes have strengths and weaknesses. Of course heroes who are strong on dive will have a tool that is good on them like an escape tool or stun. But in exchange they are weaker to other stuff from multiple other compositions.
Dive is a composition like any other and ofcourse it will be better or worse against some compositions.

If I only keep the heroes who are weak to dive (Or at least supposed to be by design) and ofcourse aren’t dive for obvious reasons I’m left with:

  • Ana - Dart
  • Junkrat - Mine jump
  • Mercy - GA
  • Sym - Nothing
  • Bastion - Nothing
  • Ashe - Coach Gun
  • Zen - Nothing
  • Widow - Grapple
  • Hanzo - Leap/Wall Climb
  • Baptiste - Immortality

10 heroes, 1/3 of the game and that’s without including the tanks which is fair.

Some of them counter some specific divers while being weak to other compositions more which is fair. heroes needs to be unique and one of the biggest differences is their match ups. Like How Ana can easily land sleep dart on big targets such as Hammond but can’t do much against a shield like Winston’s bubble.

If I only list the heroes who can be easily blocked or avoided by dive I would put here:

  • Ana - Dart
  • Ashe - Coach Gun

So we’re left with only 8 heroes that are weak to dive and their defensive tool can’t be blocked by dive.

  • Junkrat - Mine jump
  • Mercy - GA
  • Sym - Nothing
  • Bastion - Nothing
  • Zen - Nothing
  • Widow - Grapple
  • Hanzo - Leap/Wall Climb
  • Baptiste - Immortality

Now we can remove each hero that has good counters from other roles as well which are:

  • Junkrat - Weak to hit scans like Widowmaker or Zenyatta and kiters (I guess kiters are kind of divers…)
  • Sym - Weak to pokers like Bastion or Torbjorn
  • Bastion - Weak to pokers like Hanzo or Junkrat

These 2 technically have 1 or 2 counters from other roles but not enough for me to count them here…

  • Hanzo - Leap/Wall Climb
  • Zen - (Technically weak )

That leaves us with:

  • Mercy - GA
  • Sym - Nothing
  • Zen - Nothing
  • Widow - Grapple
  • Hanzo - Leap/Wall Climb
  • Baptiste - Immortality

Lets make it quick and remove heroes their escape tools don’t effect dive because they don’t have an escape tool or they are weak to stuff like aoe or boops dive has a lot of.
Lets also remove heroes that play up close because it’s much easier to avoid them or ignore them if they run away.

  • Widow - Grapple
  • Hanzo - Leap/Wall Climb

That leaves us only with 2… Hanzo and Widowmaker.

Hanzo travels 1/3 the distance as Widow, doesn’t have her range or accuracy (which force him to play closer to his team), don’t really have a tool to help him fight up close, with only storm arrows being useful but still bad on most divers and the fact his arrows are projectiles give much easier time to react.
Not to mention Hanzo has some counters from other roles like Widow herself,Ashe or even Ana while Widow is only getting countered by dive.

If I try to find any disadvantage in Widow’s grapple hook it’s only the cool down but considering her range she can already play in a far place and by the time the diver would come back from spawm or get its cool downs back Widow would either have hers back too or her team would finish the diver already…

Fighting back enemies is fair but she shouldn’t be as strong as she is against her own counters, there’s a reason she was played as much even during the dive era btw.

If you want to try the test for other heroes. Against pokers test how many brawlers got high damage+ long range to actually hit pokers consistently and well and against brawlers try to test how many divers can survive stuns or aoe/tracking.
All ofcourse while being good on other stuff in general.

Widow’s pick rate over the years prove itself every time. Fighting back is fine and trying to run away is ok as well but if you have a kit that already denies 7/8 of the support heroes while also getting a tool to deny the one weak range you have then ofcourse you’re gonna be good. Especially when abilities like shields get nerfed.

I do think a lot of Widow’s problems can be solved by adding supports and dps that can counter her from range but other than that, she has to be weaker to dive.

It’s a team based game, too many heroes rely on their team for doing stuff. No reason for widow to be as independent as she is in every possible field while expecting her to be balanced as other heroes.

It’s either a normal fps where everything goes with enough skill or a team based game where your choice and your team work matters. Either way, expecting both Junkrat and Widowmaker to be as balanced while Junkrat has such clear weaknesses and she doesn’t is just unrealistic.

153

It isn’t just a problem of one hero. OW heroes generally have very high damage for a game pretends to have strategic combat. And it isn’t only limited to DPS.(Why Goats ever be possible? Cause they don’t feel lack of damage without DPS heroes.)

Instakillers aren’t just made artificially. It is a natural product from the chain, if A has damage of X, then B should have Y, then C should … .

If something in the chain is heavily changed, the whole chain should be changed. Also, if the damage chain is changed, the healing and the damage block(shields, etc.) abilities chain also should be changed.

It would be a whole remake of the game. I personally think it would be better. FPS-like TTK doesn’t fit well in this game IMO. Also, it isn’t easy such changes could be made after released, but it can be tested and applied in OW2.

154

I support it entirely

I don’t mind oneshots-

But within the context of overwatch, I feel that capability needs to be held at the caveat of wind ups, telegraphs, and an appreciable cooldown.

Is like to see widow be reworked with this in mind- giver her these restrictions, but also find ways to bolster and buff her general consistency along with it.

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155

So when I said “every accusation a confession” that wasn’t obvious to you that I consider it an accusation that I made up any rules. And accusation I obviously reject.

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I have answered this question about FOUR TIMES now!

I addressed every single part of it.

I doesn’t prove a single solitary thing that Overwatch has healing as that doesn’t sufficiently distinguish Overwatch from other games.

I explained it doesn’t distinguish Overwatch as so many other games have 1-hit-kills and healing yet are very well balanced.

I am discussing other games.

You are free to ignore dozens of other games that manage with 1-shotting snipers but ignoring it won’t make it go away.

Not interested enough to actually say anything about it, you’ve entirely ignored all I’ve said about possible means of balancing it other than categorical removal of 1 shots.

Your comment dodges the last question I asked.

You’ve had over an hour to edit in further responses or make additional replies.

You say one thing but do another.

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156

Since you seem unable to answer multiple questions without dodging or misquoting, lets stick to a single one:

IN THE CONTEXT OF OVERWATCH ONLY why is this not true?

  • 1 shots are INCREDIBLY powerful in a game built around tanks and healers as they completely counter healing - cant heal something that’s already instantly dead.
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157
158

I Never Claimed That Was Not True.

Overwatch IS a game with healing and it IS the case in Overwatch that you can’t heal someone that’s been 1-shot by a sniper!

MOST multiplayer shooter have healing and it IS the case in such games that you can’t heal someone that’s been 1-shot by a sniper!

It proves nothing to emphasise that Overwatch has healing that is made irrelevant by 1-hit-kills, most multiplayer shooters have such a thing.

Awful idea.

Nothing of the sort should ever be implemented even as a joke.

And reducing her crit mutliplier to less than every other hero is transparently punitive against Widow players, you clearly have zero interest in playing this hero and no interest in the wishes of those who play this hero.

You haven’t enabled anyone to counter Widow, you’ve just make it completely unnecessary, you can just ignore her and use healing to tank her damage.

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159

Ok, cool, i dont care about other games and they were specifically eliminated from the question. We’re past that first point - i’m glad you agree.

Do you disagree with this:

  • Range and application method does not reduce the amount of damage a 1 shot does. The numbers exist therefore the damage is comparable across characters.
160

Ignoring it isn’t eliminating it.

Only a fool would agree nor disagree with that as this is an obvious trap, it’s purposefully vague so that you can change it’s meaning depending on whether I agree or disagree with it. It’s a trick to make me seem unreasonable.

Stop jerking me around and just make your whole complete argument, as weak as it is considering you have absolutely no way to address at all the countless other games that have one-shotting snipers without issue. It is a brazen contradiction you can only pretend doesn’t exist.

You cannot win this with trickery, getting people to agree or disagree with vague things then act like they agreed or disagreed with something more specific.

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161

I recommend answering the questions i ask instead of the ones you want to answer.

The purpose of me asking that question is to get you talking about how the devs balance the game and how they have to compare heroes to each other to achieve that. Do you believe that they do this?

162

Your recommendations are in bad-faith

I cannot answer that question as it’s too vague.

That was a terrible way to go about that.

How the devs balance the game is a VAST subject, even the aspect of “how to compare heroes” is almost a synonym for game balance. So talk about what?

Here’s a simple 2 step process:

  1. Say clearly what you think should be done
  2. give a clear reason or reasons why it should be done

There is no step 3.

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163

You can answer a question if it specifically states “only about Overwatch” by only talking about Overwatch, and not another question you want to answer about other games instead. No other game is Overwatch.

I know exactly how game devs balance a game, i’ve been a professional game designer/dev for 20 years. I’m trying to get you to understand the problems here. It would be nice if you’d stop dodging questions and actually talk about things.

I’m sorry, I COULD give you an answer and already partially have… but before that happens i want a clear and meaningful discussion as to why.

164

It would already help a lot if they reduced her max damage to 200.
She could still one-shot most of the DPS and Support roster, but now you can soft-counter her with 225 and 250 hp heroes.

It would also make her less effective against Tanks.
It’s completely ridiculous that she can 2 shot most of them taking their critbox size into account.

She could get her health and maybe some other part of her kit buffed in return.

165

That is not a question you are asking that I refuse to answer.

That is a question I am asking that you refuse to even consider.

I have asked why 1-shotting snipers are ONLY a problem in Overwatch yet not a problem in all other games. Explain that contradiction! You can’t even say why that is impossible to answer, as if you did then I’d adjust my question to make it possible to answer and you don’t want to answer it.

I’ve asked you to make your question less vague and you refuse.

But not Overwatch.

YOU said that other games don’t matter, so you want it both ways when you said:

Other games don’t matter when they support my argument but when it’s about supporting your argument suddenly other games matter.

I have dodged absolutely no questions.

When you openly say you’ll ignore other games, THAT is dodging questions.

I have directly addressed your question and said exactly why I cannot answer it, instead of improving your question you revel in the ambiguity. A textbook bad faith argument, you are trying to tie up the conversation as you know the conversation cannot go the way you want.

Why… why WHAT!?!?

Why ‘we are discussing this’? Why [insert (pro)noun] are [insert verb]?!?

That is an obviously incomplete sentence.

How can you want clarity and meaning when you won’t be clear what you mean?!

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166

1 shots are a problem in many games - World of Warcraft is a particularly good example. I’ve not played much Paladins, but i hear 1 shots in that are rare. Those games aren’t Overwatch either.

I gave you an extensive list of problems for Overwatch with Widow that you didn’t have solutions for.

Do you have a reason to want to talk about other games instead of Overwatch? It feels to me like you’re trying to distract from what i’m trying to discuss with you.

167

Suddenly other games matter again.

World of Warcraft isn’t a multiplayer shooter, so you need to explain why that’s such a relevant comparison.

World Of Warcraft doesn’t depend on cover from the environment to the same extent, barriers in the same way nor does it have certain movement where it makes it harder to hit the head.

You gave a list of CHALLENGES in a game that is designed to be challenging, challenges that uncountable number of other multiplayer shooters manage perfectly well.

And now suddenly other games don’t matter.

To refute the idea that a 1 shotting sniper is could never work by citing all the games where a 1 shotting sniper DOES work.

You then need to say how Overwatch is so different from all those shooters with 1-shotting snipers.

You gave a SPECIFIC example of WoW and I gave SPECIFIC reasons why Overwatch is substantially different from WoW. Differences that are relevant to 1-shotting snipers.

No it doesn’t.

No one can say that 1-shotting snipers can never work and ignore the proof that it can work.

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168

Other games dont matter, you seem to only want to talk about that though so i’m trying to join in.

Please give me a list of games you consider valid comparisons to Overwatch when it comes to 1 shots and healing.

169

You’re asking me to make an argument you know it weak.

To list any single specific game would only be a distraction, what would be the point in listing an obvious example like Team Fortress 2 for a pointless effort trying to compare and contrast TF2 to OW when that is not my argument.

My argument is not ONE other relevant game has 1 shotting snipers.

My argument is that almost all other similar games have 1 shotting snipers.

So single out one or a few would be an exercise in futility.

How about instead of me making an argument you know is weak I make an argument I know is strong: WHY 1 shotting snipers are less of a problem in games other than Overwatch.

The difference is due to core design decisions like Overwatch no having “flinch” when taking damage. Most other games balance snipers by flinch, you don’t have to kill the sniper just mess up their shot. But with no flinch the only way to counter Widowmaker is to outright kill her before she kills you.

If Ashe lands a headshot on Widowmaker that’s only 150 damage, Widow has 25HP remaining.

All that is needed is an intermediate state short of outright killing Widow. It could be a flinch on taking damage or it could be that her charge resets on taking damage or you are knocked out of being scoped in if you take damage.

I can draw the distinction that you cannot.

I can identify why snipers are different in Overwatch compared to other games.

That difference is the intermediate countering, with something like flinch or functionally equivalent of flinch which stops you being 1-shotted but short of outright killing the enemy sniper.

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170

Why is asking you to explain yourself not relevant?

I already explained why flinch and your other solutions are irrelevant - it doesn’t solve any of the problems I listed, it just makes them happen less often.

It seems you dont want to enter into a reasonable discussion and you’re more interested in internet sparring, which is a shame.

171

You keep doing this same old trick and it’s getting tired?

You keep saying some variation of “Why is [insert some blatant falsehood] true?”

it’s bonkers.

Why is happening less not a solution?

Why should it NEVER happen?

FYI, if you can hit Widow’s body before she can click on your head (a reasonable challenge) then it won’t happen, you’ll only get 1-shot because you lacked the skills. The outcome of the fight is in your hands.

This is another tedious thing you do.

You dress up a baseless smear as “it seems you”.

It doesn’t seem like that at all, you’re just smearing me. That is “internet sparring”.