Then we can go back to 2.0.
and have to face massive amounts of hero downtime completely out of our control? nty.
To be fair, Symmetra really should just be a Support at this point.
Utility Dps are a dead role that will never be allowed to be consistently viable. (i.e… Mei and Sombra)
Torb was even reworked away from his past Utility Dps state, and he’s way more viable now than he ever was.
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This is what I have a problem with though. The decision tree isn’t the same.
Let’s just look at a simple case mecree appears. Sym 3.0 is going to try to make space between the mecree. While sym 2.0 has the option to make space or take an engagement and block flash with the shield. That ability has opened up a brand new option sym 3.0 just doesn’t have as if she gets close to mecree she gets flashed and killed.
Let’s look at a case of just the enemy team running certain hero’s. Hog and rien. Sym 3.0 has to avoid all sightlines of hog and not get hit by earthshatter. Sym 2.0 has to try and save barrier to block earthshatter while also blocking hooks. If a hog gets em then she can’t stop rien at all. Photon barrier on 2.0 has no delay so she can make the clutch play of blocking rien on reaction while sym 3.0 just can’t because the cast time is too large
Photon barrier is versatile and allows 2.0 to be adapted and self sufficient.
Now I’m going to stop with photon barrier and go on to pierce.
You describe the spam as unreliable for 3.0 and I agree it is. But it isn’t unreliable for 2.0 because she can just ignore barriers. This means prime targets are rien orisa and brig very common tanks to see in the game. These are free ult batteries for sym 2.0 allowing her to get to her advantage state earlier. The shots look similar but the end goals of the spam is widely different as sym 2.0 has a clear purpose and is actively helping while sym 3.0 is just barrier spam.
Sym 3.0 orbs are also a kill option while that isn’t the case for 2.0 that a huge difference that is self explanatory
Lock on time
Alright this is mainly changed by the range. But there are extremely useful niche uses. Especially to counter lucio stall and genji being a nuisance. This is actually really helpful when no one else is able to quickly finish these pesky hero’s. So on 2 cp maps as the enemy is trickling in sym 2.0 is the perfect solution.
It change a hero specific matchup as genji went from being countered by sym to easily dispatching sym.
But in general the range on this one changes the tool from a get off me ability gun to a decent damage laser weapon.
I think there is a lot of clear differences when it comes to looking at these abilities and their actual purposes on both kits. The hero matchups change drastically depending on the gun and having photon barrier. And the purpose of the abilities have changed dramatically without pierce and lock on. I just think you should look over how much this actually does change sym instead of just assuming it changes nothing.
It’s just the case of assuming a spherical cow where you have made so many assumptions that it doesn’t actually reflect reality. In the case of the cow it’s making fun of how scientists will typically make generalizations like no air resistance no friction and ideal shapes. And how those assumptions can really change the problem
Just because both sym versions shoot left click at chokes doesn’t mean they are accomplishing the same goal
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not exactly. you would be making space with 3.0 if she had tp to cast to get give you time for orbs and turret usage for dueling.
but without tp to cast, sym3.0 would either be trying to go ham or outright run away from the fight depending on how far apart they are from the start time of consideration just like old sym.
with old sym, you can only consider blocking flash if you’re already close (cue previous points about how similar they are in trying to get into range and how that issue pops up for the majority of their gameplay and largely what dictates what they do). and if using old barrier to gap close you’re in the same position as sym3.0 without tp regardless and will likely end up dying unless somehow mccree decides to eat a few orbs.
sym3.0 without tp wouldn’t be relying purely on orbs to win a duel with mccree because his weapon is simply better at all ranges.
- Longer ranges is the trivial case (the case were both syms wouldn’t bother dueling a mccree).
- In closer ranges (the case were dueling is pretty much the only non-throwing option a lot of the time), you can’t really maintain much of a distance while staying in orbs’ effective range anyways because roll + flash makes it reach ~14m anyways (pretty much what the effective range of sym3.0 weapon esp when including aoe radius). meaning as sym3.0, if you’re already close to the point where you can only duel him, you’d be going for landing 1 orb + primary to finish to kill asap. which can only get more consistent when you’re closer because projectile physics.
- if you’re trying to save old barrier for shatter, you’re not going to be blocking hooks much and you’d still be avoiding hog sightlines “like sym3.0 would”. hook cd is 8s, old barrier cd was 10s.
- there may be cast time, but you can most definitely be quick enough with wall to block shatter and it is being done.
<insert previous points about how a lot of use cases you’re pointing to rely on her already being in effective range which old sym and sym without tp to cast on e both would struggle to be in due to lack of tools to do so and how that dictates their gameplay>
- it was unreliable for sym old orbs. being able to go through barriers doesn’t change the fact that it was easy as hell to dodge and that she was often forced to play at a range where they were really easy to dodge. and that also made how they were aimed (or lack there of) very similar.
- irrespective of shield pierce, you’d be shooting orbs at them anyways because you aren’t just going to stand there and just watch them approach you as both syms legit have nothing else active to do in such situations. in both situations, you may momentarily put passive structures and in similar spots too, but again, momentarily and most of the gameplay is shooting such orbs in that manner
- charge ult or not, in both situations (sym2.0 spamming orbs from afar and sym3.0 spamming orbs from afar) what both syms are doing are still spamming orbs at the enemy team that’s blocked by their barriers… i.e. both are “just barrier spam”.
again only in like <15m or so (as I’ve mathematically worked out and I’m sure you would’ve seen the working/results on forums multiple times from me sharing it often) where they are aimable —> <insert previous points about struggles of both syms getting into effective range>
arguably turrets did and still do more heavily lifting in that area considering the range of primary and the vertical mobility of lucio and genji when stalling. and more specifically in genji’s dueling case, he’s got more burst combos to finish sym off faster than lock-on (whether from turrets or primary) can finish him to make less of a difference in terms of outcomes.
Idk you just aren’t thinking about what the ability does at all. The mecree example was clearly showing that the flash range around a mecree is just a death zone that 3.0 has to avoid. While that wasn’t the case for 2.0 as she could block flash on reaction. 2.0 can chose to duel mecree in that range and 3.0 just can’t. It was just a really simple difference due to photon barrier.
Yeah but sym 3.0 is trying to stay out of that close range while 2.0 is trying to get into that close range. Queue how different they are due to one having the ability to be self reliant at close range while the other will just get rolled.
Good point if mecree is in the effective range of sym 3.0s primary. Sym 3.0 pretty much already lost without team support. It just isn’t like that with 2.0 where she can actually stop mecrees win condition.
You also see how sym 3.0 starts off with an orb that’s not consistent at all with 2.0 because of charge up time and speed. 2.0 is going to try to win with mainly primary and countering flash.
This is just high level conditioning. The way it works is if you repeatedly block hog hook he will just start ignoring you. As he is trying to secure fights but he can’t get through your barrier. High level hogs will then just assume you are ready for him. This allows you to play in his sightlines(still need good positioning is not in shotgun range) yet not be the main target he will go for.
You can still do it with 3.0 by sending a turret between you and him but it’s just now a ton more precise and more inconsistent. It’s just not generally considered a good idea for 3.0 especially when the hog is on different y levels and aiming for the gut changes
No there isn’t I checked adding in ping reaction time and the cast time of sym it completely screws her. Rien hammer reaches the apex at .1 seconds he starts screaming at .4 seconds at .5 he’s has hit anyone in front of him and at 1 second earthshatter has hit its max range. Even if you manage to be a god and see the hammer up the time it takes to react send send the data to the server you are already extremely close to the time he is hitting the ground. Adding the quarter of a second wait that the wall has makes it unrealistic to block on reaction.
Luckily sym screaming mad Hindu at rien is sometime enough to frighten him into using earthshatter. And wasting his ult.
Insert point that they have different effective ranges and do not want to be in the same range as the other iteration. Especially against certain hero’s.
You have to realize people are slowed while holding a barrier same with Orissa shooting. This makes it really reliable or they have to stop shooting to dodge or drop shield(also very good for your team) yeah clever use of pierce can be reliable you just have to put the thought behind how to effectively use the ability.
Aww yes if you generalize enough it does sound they same they are both clicking left click obviously they are accomplishing the same goal.
I guess junkrat and phara also do the same thing when they press left click. No that’s stupid you don’t look at the action you look at what it causes
Wait sym 2.0 is actively pressing the tank while 3.0 is just doing mindless barrier spam who would have guessed.
Except one hits the barrier and one hits the enemy behind it pretty huge difference you are just are not acknowledging
Are you just going into how they struggle to get into effective range is that what this is all about? Like what that one difference is the aww yes these two hero’s are the same you know who else doesn’t have movement option mei but that doesn’t mean she plays like sym.
What’s even weirder about this is that sym 3.0 has tp so she can get into wierd spots easier. After every teamfight she has a free reposition. She doesn’t struggle to get into good spots that’s just something you are implying
A kill move is just a clear difference it’s not an arguing point. Sym 3.0 secondary is a reliable kill move while 2.0 is an ult charger and tank harasser.
Yeah turrets do a lot to contribute but a lucio that’s dying to turrets just has to boop to destroy them all. So having something that’s tied to your character that also counters hard to hit mobility is important. In last point scenarios you can’t wait for turrets to set up and finish off the last target for you or the stall will just take longer and your chance of losing the fight will only increase. That’s where lock on really shines
But it’s really telling that you have to compare the two under the pretex of no photon barrier no tp and then you just slide lock on and pierce and shield gen under the rug just to get them in a similar ground to compare. It’s obvious there are plenty more differences than similarities
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except look at it this way:
sym3.0 without an available tp:
- <~15m: she’s going for an orb + primary to quickly kill mccree and does so because already the “kill-or-be-killed” zone and you might as well try getting closer because your orbs are more effective with splash + getting into primary range, etc. there
- >=~15m: GTFO-zone
sym2.0:
- <= ~7m: go ham with m1 + shield maybe to block flash
- >~7m but <12~15m: she’s going for an orb as she walks closer for M1. maybe barrier for flash.
- >=12~15m: GTFO-zone
in both kit scenarios, you would be getting closer when starting off >~7m and <12~15m and you’d want to land an orb as you get closer for the burst damage and plus it’s the only damage option you’ve got at that point. sure with 2.0 kit you’ve got more of a chance via blocking flash and 3.0 orbs are more aimable in the lower range, but you can see my point about how the decisions being made, the opportunities to be taken, simply how they both play are being very similar right?
and when you further take into account how often each starting range situation occurs, quite clearly the <~7m range situation (where there’s the most difference) is a whole lot more scarce compared to the others and the >=12~15m situation is the most common. i.e. you can see how cumulatively, the resultant gameplay overall will be very similar in this matchup.
this is very sus js. because again, hook cd is lower i.e. there is a window where you won’t have barrier. not to mention what’s to say rein can’t see how you blocked hook to know when he should shatter to avoid your barrier? she’s not going to be able to block both all the time to play like she wouldn’t care about hog sightlines when wanting to block shatter like the 3.0 scenario.
idk man, these look pretty convincing:
they’re both low in which both don’t have the tools to get them in and out of such low effective ranges in a game where teams are designed to start off far apart from each other and then converge i.e. every hero will be spending much more time further away from their enemy.
when you’re forced to shoot from further away, the slow projectile speed means they have more time to dodge it i.e. no they don’t have to stop shooting or drop shield to dodge, not until they reach orb effective range where they’re more aimable, and in both kits, it’s short (moreso 2.0 than 3.0).
And given how dodgeable they are outside of their effective range for BOTH orbs, you’re not going to be doing some mad shot leading and timing 100% expecting each shot made to land like an aimable weapon fire (not even on the slowed anchor tanks), you’re just going to aim for the vicinity of where enemy character models are heading and pray for enemy incompetence and still trying to get some bare minimum value of adding to shield break.
Regardless of whether piercing shields or not, you “aim” both of them the same way for most of their gameplay, you use them largely in the same situations (and the same situations happen far more often), and you get the opportunities to use them for their use cases in the same way. This isn’t an over-generalisation.
except those heroes actually have abilities and mechanics to let them play much differently:
- junkrat and pharah have mobility to grab different angles and get in or out of their effective ranges
- junkrat has rebounds to further get different angles and approach how he zones or spams
- mei’s projectile have a long effective range (their projectile speeds are legit comparable with hanzo fully charged arrows) that she gets in effective range often enough with wasd movement i.e. actually often aimiable.
- mei has a longer ranged wall (iirc longer placement range than tp) to drastically change her strategy and opportunities e.g. whether if that’s isolating or to get height for an angle etc.
my question is why the hell are all of the turrets in a 8m line for that to happen?
when they’re zooming around high at a speed faster than your own walk speed, you’re not going to manage much time in contact (i.e. tethered) when you’re stuck at a lower height. It’s legit simple geometry.
hypotenuse fixed at ~7m attach (10 detach) = sqrt( height^2 + horizontal_distance^2)
turrets did and still do a lot of heavy lifting here.
pb wasn’t ignored, it was addressed. as pointed out, there is a vast amount of similarities in gameplay between old sym and sym3.0 when tp isn’t available to use dynamically esp when you look at it from a realistic perspective, i.e. weighting all scenario comparisons by how often they occur, of which has been my point the entire time (not to say they were 100% exact).
It really seems as you are just arguing to argue. That or you weren’t at the skill cap with one of the two iterations. I was a gm sym 2.0 player and a master 3.0(pre infinite tp). I know I’m no god at 3.0 but I can only assume her meta game gets more advanced at the higher ranks and further splits off from the old iteration
saying the things that I practiced in game doesn’t work because you don’t think they would is really annoying and stupid. Like I was doing this I’ve done it just because you didn’t understand how it worked when 2.0 was out doesn’t make it something that couldn’t be done. Like wtf
Yes you can force rien or brig to drop shield with orbs or make him take damage. Same with Orissa having to stop shooting to dodge. And it was applicable in most engagements.
But yeah we have both dug into our own ideas so nothing is going to be accomplished from this point forward. But it’s just as they say when two people have an argument they come out of it more affirmed that they were right. That said have a good weekend and I hope you continue to enjoy this game 
the only thing I said that remotely is as you described is me being sus about what you said in regards to not needing to care about hog hook with old barrier while wanting to block shatter.
In which your description or reasoning for it basically came down to a game of guessing “do they know that I know that they know that … I know that sym is saving barrier for earthshatter to know whether I can hook her”. like anyone reading that would have a “wait a minute” reaction.
old sym orb projectile speed: 10m/s
standard hero movement speed: 5.5m/s
old rein and orisa movement penalty: -50% —> 2.75m/s
orb projectile diameter: 1m (according to Projectil Hitbox size's (width) table)
Assume average human reaction time is 0.25s
So basically to dodge an orb you need to move 0.5m on average to dodge an orb fired right at you.
Time needed to travel that necessary distance = 0.5/2.75 ~ 0.1818s
Range Sym needs to fire old orb in (exclusive) so that there’s not enough time to react+dodge:
(0.1818s+ 0.25) x 10 ~ 4.3182m
Range Sym needs to fire new orb in (exclusive) so that there’s not enough time to react:
(0.1818s+ 0.25) x 25 ~ 10.7955m
I mean, were you or any sym spamming orbs as you described at the enemy about <11m away from them let alone <4.32m away from them (the actual threshold for old orbs) a lot of the time to force them to waive their movement penalty?
Yeah I can actually completely understand that. Conditioning while not to advanced isn’t described well in fps games. The best game where the term is most associated with is smash. It’s basically choosing a worse move but allowing your opponent to get completely use to it and then hard punishing them when it matters. So in the case of hog it was being in his sight lines acting as easy bait and constantly blocking hook. This conditions him into looking at you as a non target the same as he views rien as he can always just put up barrier and block hook. In gm this is a super useful strategy in lowering the threat level of the people who are most dangerous to you. And hog is at the top of the list.
I was just completely confused when you described that rien and Orissa were able to dodge and still do everything they wanted as rein simply couldn’t advance without taking damage
You see the value is that they can’t progress forward. Rien can’t move straight at all if he doesn’t want to be at a disadvantage. And if he isn’t progressing as fast then you are slowing down the rate at which the enemy team is able to claim space. It’s pretty huge actually. That’s what made pierce so significant against rien. The rien matchup is extremely consistent and an easy victory for sym 2.0.
Orissa in the games I plays vs then wouldn’t be able to dodge the orbs but this might be because I wasn’t at a high enough skill level even at gm. People can always get better you know.
But if I were to summarize the differences.
Sym 3.0 is able to claim a ton more space because of tp. After every teamfight she gets a free cheeky spot alongside a new tp. This is pretty huge. It really allows her to be flexible with her positioning.
Sym 2.0 had very useful uses for her quirks such as pierce and lock on. While matchups specific these matchups were common enough to really let her shine against hero’s she countered like rien lucio Orissa and genji.
Photon barrier completely changed how matchups and specific 1v1s were played as it allowed sym 2.0 to be self sufficient something current sym still struggles with:
In the end the way these abilities mix and mesh completely changes the gameplan and win conditions for sym 2.0 and 3.0
She was a damage and she is a damage, she never looked back for her team or gave a damn about them nerveless being a healing bot 
my suspicion with that is from the cd of old barrier. like having that mind game with rein or sigma is completely understandable because their barriers are far more available in having waaaaay less down time. or likewise with matrix vs projectile ults. but when we’re talking about sym wanting to block BOTH shatter and hook (i.e. trying to fool 2 people here simultaneously) whereby barrier cd is also longer than hook’s, it gets harder to believe that’s all that feasible or realistic.
I mean I did show the math as to how that’s completely feasible realistically (i.e. in about a majority of situations).
except… that doesn’t change much in terms of how you play sym in regards to orbs (and more specifically, when comparing how sym2.0 vs 3.0 without tp available with respects to orb spamming)…
and that’s pretty much what I’m getting at. the majority of differences in gameplay between 2.0 vs 3.0 is literally sourced from sym having tp on e to let her go where she wants to go and when she wants to, in order for her to do her job.
My claim/point has been that without that difference, i.e. without tp being on e, sym3.0 and sym2.0 play very similar.
Don’t get me wrong it’s very greedy gameplay. I want to be able to play were I shouldn’t be allowed. And it’s up to the conditioning to make it safer than it would be normally
Yeah the gameplan changes the moment barrier is down especially if there are other threats. But in games where there is only hog the conditioning is easy and you can continue to have large windows of safety as hook is down. Blocking hook was really easy after that it’s just making sure you don’t expose yourself when they have something that can kill you. It just really depends on the other hero’s. If it’s just hog you can find plenty of times where it’s safe - semi safe especially with coms help.
The conditioning gets especially prevalent in repeated games/rounds which yeah not a lot of people can do that. But at least for me I played in gm so a lot of the people you would fight would appear over and over in games to the point you get different strats depending on who you knew. There was this one torb one trick that I played with a crap ton that had zero synergy potential with my sym to the point that I couldn’t run my main if he was on the team but I also slapped him if he was an opponent just because sym does well vs stationary targets
Well we aren’t blocking both we are blocking the most important one. And stopping shatter completely shifts the team fight. I can block a hook on reaction so yeah if hog sends the line I have to stop that or dodge as if sym gets hooked she can’t block rein at all. Then You do have to abandon stopping rien.
But the idea is to have enough time to bait yourself into looking vulnerable. Positioning of the pieces is key though. Because photon barrier only has a brief window of opportunity. If hog goes for you you have to use natural cover for the next bit and just avoid rien. But if the conditioning works then you can play much more greedy and get away with more.
Well rien can’t move forward while he dodges. that’s value enough. You get the free ult and damage off on the main tank which is huge.
It also was a bit easier against orisas as she is hiding behind her barrier so her movement is already limited.
The main goal for this is to get ult charge as shield gen is the first win condition. The next is to keep the supports constantly busy healing the tanks that way they can’t pocket the dps. Orissa and rein were just the two easiest targets in my experience
Yet it completely changes what the orbs accomplish and that’s my main point here. With non piercing orbs rein just uses his barrier you get no ult charge and hero damage and are a complete non threat to the rein. With pierce the rein has to sacrifice his health early putting him at a disadvantage in the rein vs rein matchup.
Yeah both will shoot an orb at the rien but only one is actively putting pressure on the rein. That is a pretty huge difference.
I can see but I don’t agree. Pierce and lock on alone accomplish very different goals.
And photon barrier allows sym 2.0 to be self reliant and play much greedier than sym 3.0 without tp.
Shield gen also is a win condition for sym 2.0 and completely shifts the focus of the game
But if I get you right when both of the characters are on cooldown they look similar. And that would be true but for the trained eye they are trying to accomplish different goals. I think the change in gameplan is much more important and interesting rather than how it looks.