Genji getting nerfed (factual take)

[Killin-21744]

@XyZ8086-1146

I just switched off if I was getting countered by him.

as everyone should, that’s why the game allows mid-game switching.

@XyZ8086-1146

What matters isn’t damage or participation in kills. It’s getting the right kill at the right time that turns a game

Yes and no. Dealing damage overall changes the positioning of teams, forces healers to switch it up as well, and early kills determine if a team can properly push or has to wait it out again. But the right kills at the right time I completely agree with.

@XyZ8086-1146

I don’t know what the WR is for Genji vs McCree in GM, but again, their perspective isn’t who go nerf in deathmatch.

That’s fair but I meant it a bit more general in all game modes. Bad comparison I guess.

@Jake-1493

DPS passive is much more useful to Genji, than most of the DPS roster.

Yeah that’s kinda fair, I’d argue that all flankers and some hitscans benefit from it the most in general.

@Jake-1493

Off tanks were more available to peel.

also fair, but that’s not only beneficial to Genji so I wouldn’t really take that as an argument.

[blitzcloud-2996]

@Killin-21744

Overwatch used to have close to no CC at all and the tank and passive changes fit everyone, not just Genji.

I… don’t know what your point is.

You conveniently ignored the second peel tank part of the argument and used an unspecified time frame to convey a point disregarding that genji also had different, worse, stats in that “used to”.

For example: genji used to deal less damage on shurikens, couldn’t cancel deflect, deflect lasted 25% less time, had a wider spread on rmb and could get interrupted out of blade. Oh yeah, he had less shurikens too.

[Killin-21744]

@blitzcloud-2996

genji used to deal less damage on shurikens, couldn’t cancel deflect, deflect lasted 25% less time, had a wider spread on rmb and could get interrupted out of blade.

I’m trying to convene with that, that Genji has gotten many nerfs in the past while the buffs were so minuscule in terms of value.

@blitzcloud-2996

You conveniently ignored the second peel tank

I’m not trying to ignore it, I just forgot about it. And imo the 2nd tank missing part counts for EVERYONE. All dps heroes. You could say that it’s a nerf to Sombra since her passive is now useful against only 1 tank instead of 2. But it brought changes for ALL heroes. Not just Genji.

[blitzcloud-2996]

@Killin-21744

All dps heroes

Nope, divers certainly have more leeway that heroes who don’t have a chase/flank potential.

[Killin-21744]

@blitzcloud-2996

divers certainly have more leeway that heroes who don’t have a chase/flank potential.

yeah that’s fair. So it also counts to Tracer again and Sombra.

[Aviatorhead-1915]

@Killin-21744

this happened in OW1, I don’t know the exact date or the patch version, but it was “fixed” at least a year ago. Deflect used to have that big hitbox.

Okay, it stil does not feel very inconsistent to me at all, but I am not an avid Genji player so maybe I’m wrong.

@Killin-21744

I do know that ye

Then you would know that’s not really a reason to not nerf a hero, seeing as it’s a problem for everyone.

@Killin-21744

Yeah he can out-damage Moira (which should be normal cause she’s a supp) and he potentially can outdamage Winston, but Winston has too much hp for that except if the Genji ONLY hits headshots. Winston can else enter/exit the barrier at will so yeah…

It’s more of an even match up with winston than a hard counter, but yes genji has counters. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t do too much damage and have a lot of power over immobile squishies, and the mobility to keep up with most mobile squishies.

He is very strong, even into heroes who should be countering him.

@Killin-21744

we’re talking all ranks and not all ranks do this. And a lot of Genji players get taken care of the moment they unleash their ults…

The devs don’t balance around all ranks, and have also said he is overperforming at all ranks. Just because you CAN shut down a blade doesn’t mean it isn’t a strong ultimate, especially with nano.

With way less cc, there is usually nothing outside of the tank’s cc, preemptive positioning or an ultimate to counter genji. Which is fine, but that still doesn’t justify not nerfing his primary damage.

@Killin-21744

Her ult still freezes, so yes. She does have a stun/freeze.

Only her ult, so she’s not as good of a counter towards him as she was in ow1.

[Angel-2298]

@Killin-21744

I know u mean the deletion of CC and DPS passive (that every other dps also got).

• Less CC (almost none). Genji was among those benefited the most. For DPS like Widow it didn’t make that much difference because they don’t engage close-range.
• DPS passive. Again, Genji & flankers got the most of it as it directly enables them to escape after an elim.
• One less tank. So, less peel and less defense to the enemy support. Hence much easier to get those elims which loops back into DPS passive.

These are the big trio. There are some other minor things but that’s mostly related to the meta so I won’t go into that.

[blitzcloud-2996]

Tracer was nerfed for OW2. Genji was kept intact.

This is what you’re failing to see. If we had OW1 tracer we’d have the same argument against tracer.

[Killin-21744]

@Aviatorhead-1915

doesn’t do too much damage and have a lot of power over immobile squishies, and the mobility to keep up with most mobile squishies.

It honestly doesn’t feel like his shurikens do much damage in terms of fire rate/amount of projectiles and dmg in general. I’ve been an avid Genji player since the launch of Overwatch 1 and that’s maybe just my feeling. Immobile squishies almost always lose out on flankers tho, though it’s literally a flankers’ job to do that. And there are only 2 real other mobile flankers of which one completely counters Genji.

@Aviatorhead-1915

tank’s cc, preemptive positioning, or an ultimate

Ana still has her sleep and there are ways to prevent dying like Lucio or Zen ults. I think it’s fair that you have to use/save 1 ult to counter potentially 2 ults (nanoblade). Preemptive positioning should be a given in this game I’d say.

@Angel-2298

• Less CC (almost none). Genji was among those benefited the most. For DPS like Widow it didn’t make that much difference because they don’t engage close-range.
• DPS passive. Again, Genji & flankers got the most of it as it directly enables them to escape after an elim.
• One less tank. So, less peel and less defense to the enemy support. Hence much easier to get those elims which loops back into DPS passive.

sure this is fair but the tank part counts for everyone. The flankers get the most out of the dps passive and imo it’d be alright to give flankers a bit of a weaker version of that, like 5% less or something like that.

@blitzcloud-2996

If we had OW1 tracer we’d have the same argument against tracer.

OW1 Tracer was never discussed as much as OW1 Genji while back then, Tracer was better than Genji. except vs good McCrees or people with very decent aim. Genji was kept the same because he was already balanced perfectly in Overwatch 1 and then got obliterated when Moira, Sombra, Doom, and Brigitte all came out at the same time.

Holy damn that was a lot to react to.

[Angel-2298]

@Killin-21744

sure this is fair but the tank part counts for everyone.

Not really. You don’t “peel” snipers. And not so much normal hit-scan. Flankers were looked after the most. Tracer and Genji were the major winners from the removal of the off-tank, disproportionally compared to any other heroes.

Hero power isn’t a thing in itself. There’s no such thing as an “absolutely” strong hero. It’s all relative. This means that one of the ways to increase/reduce its power is to create more/less favorable circumstances, such as absence/presence of strong counters and how many of them are, the team layout, the maps layout, abilities mechanics and so on. And as a “surprise” - non of these factors involve direct change of numbers on this hero.

[Aviatorhead-1915]

@Killin-21744

It honestly doesn’t feel like his shurikens do much damage in terms of fire rate/amount of projectiles and dmg in general.

As someone who plays support into him often, they do. Genji’s who hit their shots cannot be healed against for long, especially when he is right in front of you and spamming double jump so he’s harder to hit. He is too mobile to be able to do that much damage with so little draw backs.

@Killin-21744

Ana still has her sleep and there are ways to prevent dying like Lucio or Zen ults. I think it’s fair that you have to use/save 1 ult to counter potentially 2 ults (nanoblade). Preemptive positioning should be a given in this game I’d say.

Again, this doesn’t have much to do with nerfing his primary. His midfight is what the problem is right now.

My best example would be if they buffed Pharah so that she can 2 shot any 200 hp hero with splash damage alone, would it be a good idea not to nerf that damage because her ult sucks? Or because you can go hitscan and counter her?

Or should she be fair enough to play against that she shouldn’t stomp anything that doesn’t counter her?

[Killin-21744]

There being less shielding helped everyone tho. Except supports T_T. Sure there are less people who can hold flankers at bay a bit from the side, I guess, but that’s no reason for the whole community to hate on Genji and his players for over 6 years now and to nerf him more.

@Angel-2298

Hero power isn’t a thing in itself. There’s no such thing as an “absolutely” strong hero. It’s all relative. This means that one of the ways to increase/reduce its power is to create more/less favorable circumstances, such as absence/presence of strong counters and how many of them are, the team layout, the maps layout, abilities mechanics and so on.

There is a thing with a hero that’s too weak and doesn’t do enough dmg for example while the player is aiming perfectly and he doesn’t get any kills anymore tho.

@Angel-2298

And as a “surprise” - non of these factors involve direct change of numbers on this hero.

sure that’s fair. But the player needs to increase the amount of needed time to aim which is already not all too easy for most players while also jumping around trying to evade everything and then do that vs heroes that only require 2-3 hits with a hitscan or a few seconds with a laser character, which I personally find a lot easier to pull off.

@Aviatorhead-1915

He is too mobile to be able to do that much damage with so little draw backs.

His spam jumping also makes the aiming a bit harder imo since the whole screen is basically frantically moving as well. Sure it’s definitely doable when having played him a lot but before that, not so much.

@Aviatorhead-1915

Or should she be fair enough to play against that she shouldn’t stomp anything that doesn’t counter her?

yeah this is fair. But she does stomp most people that don’t counter her, especially with a Mercy or again Ana involved. Which is the case most of the time.

BTW here is his deflect before it got nerfed/fixed

Genji's Reflect Hitbox

[Aviatorhead-1915]

@Killin-21744

His spam jumping also makes the aiming a bit harder imo since the whole screen is basically frantically moving as well.

Yeah, but again, game’s balanced around people who can aim while they do that. He shouldn’t be a tyrant in higher ranks just because people in lower ranks can’t take advantage of his mobility (which they still do take advantage of it, bc he’s overperforming everywhere)

@Killin-21744

But she does stomp most people that don’t counter her, especially with a Mercy or again Ana involved. Which is the case most of the time.

Really only if she has a pocket, she can stomp, but she’s a lot weaker on her own and easy to hit unless she gets the jump on you. Genji is also a stompy hero with a mercy pocket.

Also, genji should not have had that big of a deflect hitbox imo, it should be clear whether you’re about to shoot deflect or not by looking at the animation. It’s a fair nerf for ow2 considering a massive amount of the cc that counters him is gone.

[Killin-21744]

I completely agree with the deflect nerf. That hitbox was insane, imo they nerfed it a bit too much tho and it’s become a bit niche for that. Not everyone can perfectly look into the future and predict projectile-based ult every time

Awesome how respectful this whole thread was tho.

[Oxy-21649]

“Remember the two weeks genji was good in OW1 ?”
-Flats

The underlying issue with genji discussions is that his inherent design is everything people in lower ranks hate to deal with: Fast, Agile, Hard-hitting, at times (due to the skill involved) one-shotting.

And in higher ranks genji quickly becomes an obsolete ult-battery for actually over-tuned heros and/or his current meta-counters, i.e. Zarya, Reaper, Sojourn. (Yes reaper is a bit of an odd choice but his sustain can outheal genjis techs with minimum efford so I’ll include it):

With how strong supports heals are currently, oneshotting moira isnt easily done, and diving Anas is about as fun as licking a cactus (Her nade shuts down genjis tech, and if the second support is close by, genjis lackluster neutral game overall will. Previously that was brigs job but now any support can do that)

Kiriko is also undiveable, considering her two “get out of jail free cards”. And she can break ANY oneshot combo or meaningfull pick/dive at that; for no efford whatsoever.
Take a guess why people hate to go against Kiriko in neigh all ranks.

So what’s the nerf ACTUALLY gonna accomplish ?
It removes 6 dmg from his left and right clicks and reduces his normal r-click + melee cancel below the 200hp one-shot; breaking his bronze-level combo. Great.

What does it not change ? His obnoxious dash, r-click, melee cancel combo - Which is his actual tech btw.

Nerf genji sure; but in a meaningful way that doesnt ruin his gameplay for the people who put the efford into the hero. And while you’re at it, how about giving the other oneshot heros with tenfold less efford a tune too; widow for example ?

All it currently does is mess up his neutral game aside his techs and blade.

He will still one-shot you.
He will still be hard to hit.
He will still be complained about until people finally annoyed Jeff enough that genji goes back into the 0.1% pickrates of OW1 for the next 6 years.

Meanwhile there will still be DD-Moiras in lower ranks.
Sojourn will still suck the life out of high ranks.
Reaper will still be a top-percentile pick across all skill-ranges.
Kiriko will still hard-counter any meaningfull play.
Hog will still have his one-shot combo and vape 90% of players cant effectively deal with.
Phara-mercy will still dominate lower ranks and console.
Baptistes Immo-Field will still be one of the most impactful abilities in the game.

I can go on; there is problems in OW that people overlook for the sake of finding a scape-goat in genji due to lack of their own ability. And those problems will persist for as long as people choose to ignore the 90% of reasons they loose.

And before someone says I main genji, I main support; main-healer at that.
I defend one of my obnoxious match-ups.

[Killin-21744]

That is a very good compiling there. His ult actually got nerfed back in the day from I believe 8 seconds to 6 seconds so Zen became a direct ult cancel with his own ult duration.

Thanks for giving some personal insight as a supp main to this as well.
Nice structure and paragraphs btw.

[Grumblemore-2307]

Have you heard of the term “whataboutism” at all? The majority of your statements are trying to find excuses with other heroes rather than Genji himself.

You omit positive changes that Genji has had to try and avoid dullying your points.

Deflect is niche? Ha!

Server latency? Are you really going to blame lag on hero balance? Weak sauce, mate.

Of the “counters” that you mentioned; Zarya, Sombra and Roadhog are already controversial for their own power levels. You can’t use a counter excuse when everyone is suffering at the hands of that Hero.

Moira, Symmetra and Echo are also weak excuses. They bypass one ability. Genji still has access to an extremely effective kit that is not mitigated at all in its aggression. Genji is a mobile DPS hero, not a defensive one. The 3 girls bypass one defensive while leaving his speed and mobility almost completely unchecked.

McCree doesn’t exist anymore. Cassidy, on the other hand, has his own controversy regarding his high damahe sticky grenade. This doesn’t factor in the other hereos that have to deal with Genji.

Winston and Torbjorn’s turret are the only proper counters, and even then the turret can be leashed and deflected. Again, it doesn’t factor in the issues that other heroes have to deal with when fighting Genji.

A shark might be able to kill an angry badger, but do you still want that angry badger with you in your tent?

Genji has a slight frame and a tumbling headhit box. He’s easily missed while he takes less effort himself to hit you. This is not a skill issue. This is an effort imbalance.

Also, if you think everyone here is bad at the game, remember that you’re here crying about Genji nerfs. If you were good at the game, wouldn’t you adapt?

Ultimate combos are irelevant. They are all powerful. If you want something against Genji and Nanoblade, then consider the fact that Zarya’s ultimate doesn’t follow people. Genji has the ease of not having to worry about enemies sticking around - he is the ultimate.

You have no argument. You are just salty and bias. Maldmore, please. Learn to adapt.

[Deatheye-2344]

@Grumblemore-2307

McCree doesn’t exist anymore. Cassidy, on the other hand

Haha

@Grumblemore-2307

Torbjorn

Who? Torbjorn doesn’t exist either, his name is Torbjörn - at least according your logic.

[Stromboli-11377]

the list of heroes you gave isnt a list of heroes that counter genji thats a list of heroes that can interact with genji after he dashes into ur face holding deflect lining up a frame 1 triple headshot shuriken without a punish window. ive learned to aim vs genji i can hit the sleep but that isnt worth beans vs deflect-> right click.

plus he got buffed a bunch at the end of ow1 to combat the cc creep and is one of the only dps heroes to not get targetted nerfs going into ow2. this isnt even talking about the fact that ow2 environment favors him a bunch more

no one wants to swap to torb sym dude at least i dont cause im not a cheese lord (i’ll do mei though cause shes lit but shes not in the GAME). and fact of the matter is as support only one of you can swap to moira. lucio is quite a difficult and demanding hero to ask someone to swap to in desperation.

inb4 “positioning” there IS no safe position on colosseo man push maps are every man for themselves.

[Killin-21744]

@Grumblemore-2307

You omit positive changes that Genji has had to try and avoid dullying your points.

tell me a positive change to Genji. Not the minuscule ammo increases to his kit after years of new counter heroes and nerfs.

@Grumblemore-2307

Of the “counters” that you mentioned; Zarya, Sombra and Roadhog are already controversial for their own power levels.

You’re seriously ignoring Sombra that way? Sombra is directly countering Genji the most out of all other heroes.

@Grumblemore-2307

Moira, Symmetra and Echo are also weak excuses.

Moira isn’t a weak excuse and Symmetra imo isn’t either. Moira has the same amount of a dash. Swift Strike and her TP have about the same distance I think, not sure on that tho. And she has self-sustain, intense single target dmg or healing and can survive a lot of fights vs Genji with all her abilities combined. And she ignores his deflect as a bonus.

While I do agree that Symmetra and Echo aren’t direct counters but they have stuff that counters his deflect which is a huge help, since everyone either cries about his mobility, his deflect still being OP or his nanoblade.

@Grumblemore-2307

McCree doesn’t exist anymore.

he does in everyone’s hearts since Cassidy is a stupid name and the name change doesn’t get rid of their perv problem.

@Grumblemore-2307

Genji has a slight frame and a tumbling headhit box. He’s easily missed while he takes less effort himself to hit you. This is not a skill issue. This is an effort imbalance.

His own kit counteracts him a lot. While in the air he has less float control and is easier to hit imo and his climb very often doesn’t work due to bad collisions on walls. Sure he’s thin but so is Echo flying through the sky or Widow for example.

@Grumblemore-2307

Also, if you think everyone here is bad at the game, remember that you’re here crying about Genji nerfs.

This has nothing to do with adapt because we’ve had to adapt for the last 6 years with new different counters like Moira on release and present, Sombra after rework to present, Brigitte on release and still strong enough to 1v1 Genji and the list goes on.

I’m calling out ultimate Combos because everyone else seems to mentioned nanoblade all the time. Genji becoming the ultimate is fair but also a weakness. If a Genji uses his ult at the wrong time he gets one shot since u don’t really want to use deflect during ur ult time. Pharah also becomes “the ultimate”.

@Stromboli-11377

i’ll do mei though cause shes lit but shes not in the GAME

how is that Genji’s fault?

@Stromboli-11377

he got buffed a bunch

ur ignoring all the nerfs he got beforehand and the buffs ur mentioning are ammo increases and maybe a bit more dmg per shuriken at best.

@Stromboli-11377

the list of heroes you gave isnt a list of heroes that counter genji thats a list of heroes that can interact with genji after he dashes into ur face holding deflect lining up a frame 1 triple headshot shuriken without a punish window

Most heroes that I didn’t mention play either neutral like Soldier who can survive or even win with his healing and others that get countered by every flanker in general.
Widow loses mostly vs D.Va, Winston, flankers and a few others. I haven’t seen many Genji’s in all my 6 years of playing who can play him that perfectly in every match vs every hero. Ever.

@Stromboli-11377

no one wants to swap to torb sym dude

other people’s stubborness not to want to switch off to counter a hero isn’t on Genji either. Ever hero has their counters and heroes they specifically counter. That’s why switching mid-game is a thing.