[Feedback Thread Continued] Mercy Updates - Jan 30, 2018

[Lithy-2614]

No, omg. Read it, I’m talking about a new E ability. That means removing her current one. She would have only one type of rez. She doesn’t need anything redundant and giving her two rezzes as her E and Q would be redundant. I wouldn’t buy that.

[True0Neutral-1564]

Wouldn’t that make her even more OP than she was before? Having mass rez and the single rez would break her so hard.

I’d suggest rereading what you’re responding to. I’m fairly sure Lithy means an E ability that isn’t rez.

[Fulmen-11641]

A a medic main, who’s friends with other Medic mains. Lair.

[Succubus-11506]

You’re very hostile and I don’t think you’re actually trying to have a real discussion, so this is going to be my last response here. I’m giving my honest thoughts on the topic, and you are attacking me, dripping with sarcasm and self assurance in every part of your comment.

Here’s the thing: you’re either being very facetious, or you’re ignorant of the hypocrisy here. You have been replying to Mercy players with the same condescension that we received ever since invulnerable Rez hit–if not before. You are repeating and perpetuating the same tired, elitist, stereotypical tripe that we’ve heard over and over and over, touting it as if it were fact.

So again, here’s the thing: if I sound “hostile” and “self-assured” to you, it’s because that’s exactly what you sound like.

Hell, the simple fact that blizzard, who has more experience and access to data than any of us, has decided this is best should make you at least question the certainty of your beliefs. How can you be so 100% sure of yourself on a such a complex topic, when the people who know it best disagree with you? Should you not even consider that you might be wrong about what is most healthy for the game? Even a 20% chance that you are wrong?

A 20% chance that I’m wrong? What would that change? By what metric do we arrive at this precise measurement?

Blizzard has been wrong before, as evidenced when people told them that 100 extra Armor on Dva was a mistake, and they took it back later, or when people told them that Scatter Arrow was just a terrible ability altogether, and they later started working on rework after months of it being in the game. Or when people told them that Hog was trash when they lowered his damage and nerfed his hook.

Hell, even this analogy doesn’t work. Mercy Rez was in the game from day one, and DPS players hated it from day one. So if it was so “unfun” to play against, why did that change the moment that it stopped being a suicide ability? Was Blizzard wrong about Mass Rez from day one? Were they wrong about Invulnerable Rez? Hell, where they wrong about Instant E-Rez and original Valk?

With the fact that they’ve changed their minds so many times about one hero, where the heck is your confidence in Blizzard coming from? And that’s not even getting into the fact that no data that we have available on the hero supports the reasons for the rework other than “it was unfun to play against”. And if that’s what we’re using to judge abilities by, then every damn hero is one hate mob away from a rework. Personally, I’ve hated RIP-Tire from day one, so maybe if my stream takes off, I can complain about it long enough until I start a trend.

Anyways, regarding “tempo res,” don’t you see this is still part of her kit? The most healthy usage of her ultimate, still exists! Except it has even better design now, as there is much more counterplay and decision making involved. You can’t just res anyone for free, you have to make choices about what is safe and what isn’t, or whether it’s a good tradeoff for the time you could’ve been healing instead, or whether it’s better to save the tank or the DPS.

Okay first of all, you’re still using “counterplay” wrong, which I’m getting so tired of people abusing.

“Counterplay” does not mean “You press a button, and then I press a different button to stop yours”. Counterplay is a complex web of play that takes into account the entire balance of the game and flow of the fight. The counterplay for Mercy 1.0 was simple: stop her from building Rez and, barring that, make it difficult or impossible for her to Rez a whole team.

How was this done? Well, first if you were the DPS, you needed to pressure her the whole game. If you couldn’t kill her, at least make it a pain in her butt to try and heal anyone. This slows down her ult build, making sure she doesn’t have it when she needs it. If you kill her, even better, because she can’t charge Ult quickly if she’s dead.

Barring that, you remove her ability to get max value out of Rez. How do you do that? Again, by putting pressure on her and forcing her to use invulnerable Rez to save herself, or putting her in a dilemma where she isn’t sure she can Rez multiple people at time. Making Mercy choose between two bad options was the core function of counter-play. The reason your assessment of “tempo rez” is off the mark is because before, it was just PART of her strategy; it was a dilemma she had to choose from: tempo Rez now and have no ult for later, or save ult and possibly die before she could use it.

And barring all that, kill her before she presses Q, or wipe her team again after.

What you want, and everyone who says “counterplay” is just the last thing. A way to kill Mercy before she uses it, and that’s exactly what makes it so braindead now. Since “counterplay” is now boiled down to “If you see Mercy glow, give her head a hard blow”, it’s actually a LESS-involved game than it was before. Players just seem to want “twitch-reflex watch” instead of “play smart for an entire match watch”.

Regarding value- The concept of value doesn’t differ at all between skill levels.

Value is value. Optimal play is what differs between skills levels. The discussion also was never about what she does when she doesn’t have ultimate, it was about how she plays when she does have it, and the effects that the ultimate has on the game as a whole.

This is flat out wrong. See above for my talk about how to prevent Mercy from building Ult. That was a core aspect of her strategy, and the fact that you think her playstyle doesn’t matter if she has it or not just seals the fact that you really don’t get that.

Also, this argument is semantics. “Value” is the same thing as “optimal play”. Optimal play is LITERALLY getting max value out of your character at all times.

I was talking about the interesting and fun ways to use the new ultimate. The most “fun” usage of her old ultimate was a massive POTG res, which didn’t involve much interesting decision making and didn’t have much counterplay. The whole point of what I was saying is that her new ultimate allows fun and engaging gameplay that is also GOOD gameplay.

No, it does not, and I just spent an entire post breaking down why that argument is BS.

Next.

Regarding the last part, you aren’t understanding what good game design is. Again, the goal is for the game to be ENJOYABLE and INTUITIVE, while also allowing skill expression. Yes, of course it is SKILLFUL to be very careful with your ultimates when a mercy with rez is alive, but KILLING enemy heroes with skillful ability usage is a core facet of the game that should always be a positive. Whenever possible, you should not be PUNISHED for doing something that is so core to the game, and to the enjoyment of the game. It often made playing against her feel uncomfortable and frustrating, and it wasn’t a good thing to have in the game.

See, what I mean about you being a self-assured hypocrite? You think I don’t know about game design? I AM a game designer, having created my own table-top RPG game that was popular for many years and I still have fans wondering when I’m going to get off my butt and finish the relaunch I’ve been working on for like 5 years now.

But also, your entire argument here can be summed up with “if DPS are having fun, it’s a terrible sad thing to make them have less fun” which is a load of bull. The fun of the DPS is directly opposite to the fun of the enemy team. Nobody has been headshot by a Widow and thought “Gosh, now I gotta walk back from spawn and this is fun!” Nobody’s walked around a corner and been hit by a Rein Charge that wasn’t meant for them and said “Good job Rein! I had lots of fun being dragged across the map to my death!”

Like every ability, Mercy’s Rez was not fun for the other team. But you know who it was fun for? HER team. I swore I would pay real cash the first time I ever mass-Rezzed a team and they said “Stupid Mercy! I had fun being dead! Screw you!”

Guess what? Never had to pay a cent.

[Malware-11643]

You’re not forced to play anyone. My point still stands. Mercy is fine and lot of people still like her. If you don’t then tough luck, keep not having fun and trying to blame someone else or find a new character to have fun with.

[what-21551]

@GeoffGoodman

We’re looking at reverting [the Scatter Arrow buff].

Revert Mercy intensifies

[ShadowDragon-154694]

I just want to point out that this thread has been up for months now and so far we’ve had absolutely no feedback whatsoever.

Every single thread asking for some kind of developer insight just gets shoehorned into this one-- and this one keeps being ignored. it doesnt inspire confidence.

I don’t think its unreasonable to ask for a little transparency when it comes to the state of Mercy; especially after we were promised time and time again that our feedback mattered.

[Silawatsi-1430]

A dev “hey, we’re reading this thread” post would go a long way to pacifying mercy players.

Maybe a statement on whether or not Mercy’s current build is her final form?

This next one is asking a bit much, but a it would be nice to have a few official “mythbusts” on suggestions in this thread - things that the devs for sure won’t consider. Just so we know which direction to go with future suggestions.

[sprite-12678]

I mean, the devs have this practice of only replying to threads about heroes in the works right this minute - Mercy when being tweaked, Mei, Hanzo, Sym. So it’ll be likely we’ll get more info later.

However, the fact that this is at 17k and no “Hey, we’re reading your suggestions.” “Hey, interesting ideas here.” “Hey, _____.”

Nothing. Not even a “We are not ignoring this thread”

[sprite-12678]

The mythbusting idea sounds neat. There are plenty of people giving new suggestions, and maybe we could get a nudge and give something that might work for Mercy, for the devs and the players.

[Macster-11267]

There are a couple differences. First off, the DPS player often has to find sneaky, offensive positioning to pull it off, which has inherent risk. The mercy player is generally hiding in the back of their own team, without too much foresight or risk involved.

Actually, in certain maps, Mercy had to find sneaky ways to Resurrect her team. So that’s a hypocritical argument.

Secondly, the DPS player is losing damage the longer they stay out of the fight. Their ultimate has to be effective enough to offset this loss of damage, or it wasn’t worth doing. Yes, the mercy player is also “losing healing” but when the goal is for your teammates to die, it doesn’t have the same sort of negative impact. It’s no longer a tradeoff, it’s part of the plan.

I mean the point of Resurrection is to revive allies so of course, the goal was for her teammates to die. Just like how the point of a DPS ultimate is to kill enemies so of course, the goal for them is to kill the enemy team. Every ultimate has a plan set in place. This is where I’m going to position to get the full effects of my ultimate.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, almost every offensive ultimate is a CHANNEL that has a lot of vulnerability. Pharahs probably die during their ultimate more often than they don’t. Mercy didn’t really have this tradeoff, as it was instantaneous and granted temporary invulnerability. It also couldn’t be blocked by walls, barriers, defensive matrix, etc.

And here is where I will agree with you.
Her Resurrect needed counterplay to which we have now. Resurrect as an ultimate needed to have a CHANNEL, a LOS requirement, and it needed its effects blocked by barriers. That way it would be on par with the other support ultimates. While adding so much needed counterplay Mercy needs a benefit to Tempo Resurrecting, where a burst heal could’ve been added to players that were alive. It would make it a lot more thrilling and fun to use. While giving some much needed counterplay.

[Succubus-11506]

“Why can’t you guys just trust Blizzard? Clearly they know more than we do?”

[what-21551]

it’s just a meme

[Succubus-11506]

I was agreeing with you, dude.

[what-21551]

it’s 3am for me, i just assumed you were trying to start an argument and right now I’d rather just agree with whatever someone is saying. my bad

[Succubus-11506]

I love arguments as much as any girl, but not when you’re right about Mercy revert.

If you ask me if I put on weight, that’s a different story entirely.

[what-21551]

I like your name by the way. Did you get it from the final fantasy games? I’m not sure whether a Succubus exists outside of FF lore.

[Succubus-11506]

Succubi are very old folklore creatures. Some form of them exist in every culture’s mythology, although most people use the European versions.

I actually chose the name because I’m a fan of Morrigan from Darkstalkers, Succubus from Marvel Comics, and many others such as Maria from Testament of Sisters. And for other personal reasons I would like to keep private.

[what-21551]

And for other personal reasons I would like to keep private.

do you like to succ-a-bus? :^)

[Succubus-11506]

Gets asked that question in basically EVERY team chat she’s in.