Everything that isn't a DPS shouldn't do a ton of damage

General Discussion
81

Actually you have it backwards. They use healing because not dying is better than dying.
Damage is superior in every way to healing, especially numerically. But the point of healing is for your team to outlive the enemy one. And that’s mostly dependant on which side’s DPS is aiming better.

Have you compared the projectile speeds ? Mei’s is over double Mercy’s…
Zen’s projectiles are slower and are fairly straightforward to use. Mei can easily outsnipe Widow for example.

But then you’re 1v2, which means you should always lose. Even then Mei will kill her right after the ult ends (Zarya can’t kill her fast enough then).
Add a Discord or Damage Boost on Mei’s side then it is fair.

Burst damage shouldn’t pressure shields. Otherwise it would be good at everything.

But she trades that for no healing, no utility out of her ult and much less HP.

It makes her invulnerable. It’s also the only self-healing that can bypass anti-heal.

Zen’s alt fire isn’t a one-shot.

82

Healing is generally better than damage. That’s why supports and tanks made metas, not DPS and tanks.

Projectile speed isn’t a massive factor before very long range. Over the size of an objective point projectile speed doesn’t mean all that much. It’s only at very long range where it really applies.

Yes, that IS a 1v2 situation, but I’m making a point that Mei deals so little damage that if Zarya has any healing from a Zen far out of the ult, Mei still can’t get the kill. Ignoring the fact that Zen could shoot. Even with four full seconds to shoot with a 2x damage bonus, Mei couldn’t make the kill.

Burst damage doesn’t pressure shields, but Mei’s rate of fire is so low that she doesn’t make all that many kills anyway. Since the only thing she can burst down is a Tracer. One of the hardest targets to hit and using the hardest gun in the game to hit with?

I’ll ignore the widow thing at this point since it’s comparing DPS to supports. I only mentioned Widow because you tried to say “low damage doesn’t always mean things.”

Mei is only invulnerable for the time she can’t move, and again… has to come out at which point she instantly dies. If it’s to cleanse, she really doesn’t heal. Other characters can cleanse better. Moira can do it and move and be invisible as she does, Zarya can do it and get a 200 hp shield. (which is more than Mei’s heals). Orisa can cleans CC (not anti).

And if you’re saying Zen’s alt fire isn’t a one shot, fine. But it’s still more burst damage. Is your argument that “Mei can one shot ONE character more than supports, so supports dealing more damage over time than a DPS is reasonable.”?

83

Rein is perfect woth his buff, if you get into his range unless you are a tank there should be 0 survival which is how it should be, do mot nerf his damage

84

then dps shouldn’t have armour or self healing. oh and if the tanks cant deal damage all cc goes to the tanks. have fun now buddy.

3 Likes
85

I agree,
Although I do think some exceptions are fine.

  • Zenyatta really needs his damage as the damage is also his escape tool ,and synergies really well with his kit. Not to mention his body is really big so letting him do a lot of damage works really well while also letting support help with shield break in case your dps just go something like Mccree-Ashe who does noting to shields…

  • D.va: she has a giant spread, giant body and overall needs some protection, it’s better for her to do more damage with more armor than making her protection useful up close, we’ve seen what happen when she gets too much matrix… So her high damage potential is actually really fine.

And… that’s about it for some of the high damage tank/support.
Other than that, some tanks and support aready have very low damage output so I guess it’s more than ok for them to keep their damage output. Most support only do 1/2 of a dps damage and tanks do need some damage for space claiming, much less but still…

The only thing we need to take into account is heroes like Roadhog or Zarya that kind of rely on high damage so need some sort of defensive buff in exchange.

But overall I can totally agree

86

Healing allegedly being better than damage isn’t why tanks and supports dictate metas (that’s not even true anyway).
Tanks are the heroes that define metas most of the time because they dictate the playstyle of the team in the objective-based game that is OW.
Supports sometimes define metas, usually when they are horredously busted (Ana in S2-S3, Moth Mercy…)

DPS also sometimes define metas, such as Double Sniper, which had GOATS as a consequence (yes, GOATS was defined by DPS), and then double barrier.
DPS being busted will always force metas without DPS due to them being their own best counters. Metas are meant to be consistent, not a lottery of who lands one shot first.

She can burst down any 200HP hero given she uses her Freeze.

Her dying is entirely dependant on her team supporting her, or not.
Also, she still has Ice Wall.

She doesn’t need to use it to cleanse. She uses it to heal, the cleanse is a bonus (meaning anti-heal isn’t a counter).

But doesn’t self-heal (and doesn’t contest objectives).

Again, doesn’t self-heal, and last for a shorter duration.

She can’t cleanse at all. She can’t use Fortify while stunned or slept. It blocks CC, it doesn’t remove it.

It also has a higher ammo cost, is harder to aim (five shots vs one, slower projectiles), takes longer to charge and fire…
And Zen can’t freeze targets either.

4 Likes
87

depends…

zenyatta damage is okey because he dont have good self defense. and he needs a lot of skills.

what was terrible are moira and briggite launch kit… with a very good healing, defense and attack.

88

It’s a fine line, but it does exist. It’s a different thing having enough damage in order to threaten your enemy so that they back off compared to having enough damage in order to finish them off as well and secure a kill.

89

On the support role, only zen and to some extent baptiste and Lúcio can support by doing damage or flanking. On the tank role… what do you want them to do? Sit ther with the shield up being a punching bag for you? Tanks shouldn’t just be sitting there waiting for you to look at them and say “YOU DIE”, they need and must have damage, you know how they create space? By being aggressive and scare the enemy team by forcing them to retreat because of their big healtpool and high damage, if you want to shoot someone your tanks need to create a safe zone where you can be to be able to shoot at the enemy team without them running you down, your tanks is what’s keeping the enemy team from coming up to you and destroy you. How are they supposed to create that safe space if they deal 0 damage? This is just stupid.

90

THATS a terrible idea. You remove all healers and all tanks from Overwatch, now what? You have Valorant 2, what do we do with it now? The main reason Overwatch was super well received and even won game of the year when it released was because it was different and people loved it. If you just want to play as 6dps vs 6dps just go csgo, go play valorant, Overwatch is different for a reason it’s a whole different type of game.

91

The whole reason you’d back off a fight would be risk of losing (dying) not being damaged. If a flanker can win a fight readily they will press the attack, barring a major mistake. Once the kill is secured a health pack can be found or hopefully some ranged healing applied by finding a friendly ranged supports LOS. A support should not have to hope an attacker will mess up to win. full health 1v1’s should not 90% result in the supports death.

We already have more people unwilling to play supports and tanks with a huge glut of DPS, why do you feel we should make those two classes even more niche or unattractive to those who enjoy securing some kills?

We’ve now got people filling in the less popular classes just for the chance to play DPS faster and you feel they’re underperforming or unattractive? Why?

1 Like
92

well this is a bad post

1 Like
93

That’s a cool thought process.

But what do you mean by this? Like how should they flatten the differences? Keeping hybrid characters, but bad at all their “role” capabilities? Or just make get over with the hybridness and make them all more similar to their role?

94

Bruiser tanks without damage are no longer bruisers.

They are fine as they are.

1 Like
95

Hmm poking happens at the beginning of a fight. It generally refers to doing useless damage that does nothing but feed support ults, Its not to secure kills

96

I’m not a game designer by any means, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt. =)

It just feels like in some cases there is a little too much roll cross-over in one character, where they can do two rolls equally well. Tanks that can be played as DPS equally well. Supports that can be played as DPS equally well. That kind of thing.

I just wonder if they made the delineation between the rolls a little more dramatic…so say a tank can possibly have support abilities, and dps abilities, but not tuned so high that they can be played instead of tanking. The same for supports. The same for DPS. They could all have something in their kit from each category, but they would never be able to step cleanly out of their main category. Clear as mud right? =P

I would turn up tank’s “tankiness”, and turn down their dps/support.
I would turn up support’s “supportness” and turn down their dps/tank.
I would turn up dps’s “Deepeeessness” and turn down their support/tank.

OR

The other notion is just to get rid of primary rolls altogether, and just pick whatever character you wanted to play, and all the characters had a little of each catagory in their build. Want to primarily support? Pick a character who does that and little else (Say, Mercy. She can’t tank, she can’t really dps). Want to purely DPS? Pick a strong DPS that is weak in the other two ability sets (Say, as an example, Widow). Want to Tank? Pick someone who can mitigate a ton of damage, but little else (Used to be Rein). Want something more balanced who does a little of everything and has a lot of options, but isn’t as powerful in any one ability (Go Brig, or Solidier. that kind of thing).

In that way, no roll is stronger than the other, you can build a team which leans in any direction you like, but at a cost. Lean more tanking, you can take punishment, but you can’t dps. All dps? Tons of power, but your a glass cannon and easily broken. Tons of support? You can survive and mitigate damage, but it’s difficult to take ground and hold it.

Something like that. You can do one category really really well, or a few categories fairly well, but you can’t do two categories equally well.

Ramble ramble ramble…

97

Play around with it, pay for damage with time, not to mention they can still have higher damage than other tanks.

I really think a tank should be about space rather than looking for kills.

For Zarya you can still make her problematic up close.
Lower the damage to maximum 140 but increase amount of bubbles from 1 to a team member to 6 each one gives 30%, That will make it so up close she’s still super strong and ready to bruise while actually focusing around space rather than damage. With all tanks doing much less damage you actually benefit more from the nerf as your total damage compared to the enemies by % is higher but per individual target is lower, so for that you gain extra defense.

About Hog. Because of the spread idk if he really needs a total damage nerf but what he does need is being more defensive and less offensive… For that you can just nerf the hook range from 15 meters down to 12 meters, and nerf his damage from 150 down to 100 but in exchange give him a faster fire rate. That will make it so players will need to use the hook more defensively to save team members from divers and flankers while not being able to one shot anymore forcing him to hook only damaged targets.
Now I know this is a pretty big nerf so what I suggest is giving him the body guard passive. Any enemy within range of 10 meters or less do 75% damage down from 100%, for 6 seconds OR until line of sight is disconnected OR while until enemy uses anti effects ability (cryo freeze, recall, Wrath form, translocator,bubble and so on…)

These changes will keep both Zarya & Hog great bruisers while being more focused on defense and protection rather than damage alone.

If you like hog as you are be my guest, but from what I see in the forums too many people complained about hog being fat dps, and from I’ve seen people didn’t like goats either. So finding a solution for both sounds really fair to me.

98

Roadhog and Zarya make space by the threat of damage.

Bruisers are offensive by nature. If you have reworked them to be defensive then they are NOT bruisers. They aren’t anything at this point.

Your changes homogenize the tank role and make playing rh or zarya NOT worth it.

Roadhog is already 4th to 5th in overall tank damage. His burst and threat are all he has.

His hook is how he peels. His threat of death is what makes people back up. Allowing essentially all but reaper and doomfist play out of his range is a terrible idea.

99

You can say the same thing about defensive heroes. Noting here any other hero can’t do… Just pick bastion and spray the enemies or Symmetra and wall them off. No reason really to count bruisers as tank specific skill.

He’s 3rd place after 100% Zarya and D.va

And again, how is that really fair to give a target with much more hp than a dps, the same damage and even more than a dps? You pretty much make a stronger dps. There’s a reason goats was a thing in first place and that’s tanks doing everything.

Bruisers in theory are a good idea as you give less damage for less protection but in reality the current bruisers are just dps. Most hog players or Zarya players go full on dps getting kills rather than actually helping their teams.

First of all about the hook, I agree that in theory that what the hook is meant to do, but with it having so much range and hog having so much damage. all players prefer going offensive and using it for securing kills. Current hog almost never use it for defensive uses, only to get kills. You provide the same scare as getting into Widow’s sight or fighting up close with Reaper.

12 meters is crazy. and it’s not gonna let players to pass him. The other way around, Hog will use it more defensively making it even scarier as you can’t bait it anymore.
Besides, why only Reaper and Doomfist?
Reaper,Genji,Tracer,Doomfist,Roadhog,Mei,Hammond,Winston,D.va,Reinhardt,Mccree, Symmetra,Sombra,Lucio & Brigitte all have to commit to a target, if you hook them away they can no longer reach it and instead are forced to fight you.
15 heroes out of 32…
Even without Lucio,Tracer,mccree or Symmetra as they all got some sort of way to keep on dealing damage. 11 out of 32 heroes is crazy amount.

You still cause massive damage to them but instead of death you just make them loose their kill and risk their lives.

If you like the concept of bruiser you can focus more on dps with the same concept rather than a tank, but it’s just not fair forcing a hero to be a better version of one role just because it is how it is. That forces things like goats to exist and overall just attract more dps players to the tank role rather than making sure tanks are fun in their own way. There’s a reason this game is split to roles and not just random heroes…
Each role got a job to do and it’s just fair to let it do it rather than going around it.
I don’t mind hog keeping his total damage output because of spread but he should have weaker burst in order to encourage defensive over offensive.

100

Question.

Did you know that Valorant killed OW?

The hype for that game died in 6 weeks.