Enforced 2+2+2 & Role Queue Interest Thread

General Discussion
21

As I stated in the same thread, player choice is what’s gotten us into this mess with Ranked Mode in the first place. Time to remove it and force players to coordinate at a base-level (the Hero select screen).

And it’s a fallacy because I am a potato. I’ve climbed from <500 to Gold and I can tell you that 99% of the time we “adapted to circumstance” was when I was the one that did it.

Potato Ranks don’t even have a base understanding of the correct way to play this game. The option needs to be taken away. At very least, below-Diamond ranks.

22

Because the only time it’s ever been an option to switch off 2-2-2 to “adapt to circumstances” is when there has been a comp that is just too OP, that nobody likes anyway (like for instance Goats currently, and Quad Tank many seasons ago). Well guess what, there are 16 or so DPS heroes. If you can’t find something decent to play in that category, without making the game stale and restricted, then that’s the problem.

23

Then what about heroes which are balanced in a way that they are onyl viable in triple set ups? Brigitte for exampel got nerfed so much that she is only viable in goats and sucks when run as a second support.

24

You may be right. We don’t know, but it’s probable. On the other hand, the Goats comp might evolve to something like Brig Lucio Zarya Rein and then a Soldier maybe to assist with healing, and a Genji to reflect stuff instead of the DVa matrix. The thing is, we don’t know whether Brig would work in 2 support comps. All we know currently is that 3 support comps with Brig are better than 2 support comps with Brig.

Anyway, let’s assume you’re right. Then they’d have to rebalance her. Not a big deal, if you ask me. I do not believe that is the case with many other heroes except Brig though.

25

I am interested a lot in a role Q. Give some flexes to players who deserve it and you can run any balanced comp. Enough crying in chat for 1 out of the 3/4 dps to change, when they clearly don’t want.

Enforce good behavior instead of presuming it will happen. It isn’t.

I’m tired of getting so many poor matches, lost when players are arguing in respawn about “who locked dps first” and the enemy team is already at point A capturing the objective.

26

I vote no to this. “Some flexes” shouldn’t be part of the structure of this game. I want hard rules.

27

Extra con: it takes away some comp diversity.

1 Like
28

What “comp diversity” currently looks like

  • below Diamond: Best case 2-2-2 with everyone playing random heroes without synergy, not caring much about the meta. Worst case 3 or 4 DPS heroes.
  • in Diamond and above: 2-2-2 with the occasional switch to Goats because you were fortunate enough to get a good shot caller in your team.
  • in Competitive Overwatch: Goats.

I chose to not include that con, because of this.

2 Likes
29

If only there would be a professional developer team who could do a makeshift role que within a day or two.

Well i guess it dosnt matter because we dont have an environment, where we can test stuff and its effects to the overall gameplay,to not risk live servers anyway. (I think its called PTR on other games)

Besides, even if there were such a thing,i doubt many people would use it, so for a real test, there should be a gamemode category where you can put all kind of nonsense gamemodes in it, while rewarding for playing it and test out the stuff for you, while benefitting from it,maybe offer 3 lootbox for 9 wins. (Arcade or something seems like a fitting name)

Sucks to be an indie developer. :frowning:

30

Having 2-2-2 for solo Q makes a lot more sense as all the “creative” comps really mostly work due to random things, even when people play the meta in the vast majority of ranks, it’s with the lack of fundamental understanding of how it should be played and even if people know what to do, they aren’t capable of actually doing it.

Almost 3 years in and I’d definitely say that the vast majority of the playerbase don’t actually have a proper understanding of the game and don’t play it properly either.

2 Likes
31

Well to be quite honest,if 3 years was not enough for a whole community to get their stuff together and learn the game as the devs envisioned, then the problem is maybe not the community but the vision itself.

32

Imagine waiting 30+ minutes in the damage queue (likely longer based on other games that have this) for a competitive match and then losing. It would make losses so much more aggravating. There’s just no way a role queue works practically, setting aside that it completely undermines the spirit of this game.

33

Not necessarily. The problem is that they didn’t take player psychology into account. The vision works when it comes to the Asia servers for example. They naturally try to play the way the game was envisioned by the DEVs, they obviously also have other problems tied to it that we don’t see as much.

For the western players, expecting people to play the way they intended was and simply does not work. You can’t have a vision of how the game is meant to be played and then not also have systems in place that guides the playerbase towards playing that way. If you have the choice between being selfish and selfless then people in the west tend to choose to be selfish - I paid for the game, I play to have fun, your fun doesn’t matter to me etc. Many parts of the game requires people to be selfless as it’s admitting that it’s a team effort that wins the game and not themselves as an individual. “I solo carried the game” said the Genji who used a Dragon Blade and got a near teamwipe, not understanding that the Ana had to do her job to Nano him and maybe also hit a crucial anti nade, that the tanks had to push in and create space so that despite using nanoblade he wouldn’t instantly get focused, maybe a Lucio is speeding him in, the other DPS is putting down supressing fire to again stop the Genji from being focused.

1 Like
34

GOATS is nowhere near as common as the forums thinks it is. I’ve seen it once in the last two seasons in masters+ and we destroyed it with Symmetra and Bastion. There are many viable counters to it.

We actually use a lot of comp variety in high-level competitive games. I like to run triple tank against good snipers, for example. Or three supports against flanker combos. Or three DPS vs. bunker comps. 2/2/2 being enforced is unimaginative and would make this game really boring really fast except for the people who refuse to learn anything but DPS and think they’d finally get a team to play around them every match.

35

Most of the metas have followed 2/2/2 format… So how is it unimaginative? The most prevalent meta Dive was 2/2/2 until the mercy rework. And even then it took an op healer to break the 2/2/2 mold.

36

Yea,but also lets take an example. If GTA VI is made as an MMORPG where the combat system is the worst ever produced,and the quests are boring as a presentation about presentations, BUT it provides the best experience possible for a racing game.

Then you dont try to fight it. You dont try to make racing less appealing and try to convince the players to do the stuff they dont enjoy, just because you had a vision where everyone is questing and kill each other, while using vehicles only to get into point B from A.
If a case like that happens, you embrace it. Focus attention on what people want, and not desperately trying to fix the parts which are a mess and require to solve an ever expanding pool of problems.
I mean, you can do that,you can try to fix whats not working,but you cannot ruin everything else while doing so.

In overwatch case, if the community thinks 2-2-2 is the most ideal composition to play, and genuinely think a role que is needed to force that, then you dont take 2 years, trying to explaining why they dont need it without any effect. You do it.

37

Overwatch has a “Waited too long” feature for queues. Eventually, it’ll just shove you into a game when the queue time is too long… I doubt this is a pro at all.

38

And yet we never see such things in OWL or in Contenders, except for the one occasional match here and there. I respect that your team may have fun playing around with comps that we never see in these big tournaments, but I am certain that if there was enforced 2-2-2, you would find equally creative comps to counter these things.

Yes, tanks are usually picked to counter snipers. Hence the quad tank meta that evolved around season 2-3, right after Widow had been dominating the scene. Now, I could imagine that Hammond+Winston+DVa would be a somewhat reliable dive counter to snipers. But what if you switched one of them out with a Tracer, Genji or Sombra instead? Would it really ruin everything?

39

And many players will quit if it is introduced. That’s not even a valide point.

Yeah and let’s say in those two dps you don’t have anyone who plays a widow counter. Dps that counter Widow are Genji, Sombra and sometimes Tracer (depending on the map). That’s not a lot and you can have dps players who only play other heroes like Soldier, McCree, Ashe, Sym, Pharah etc.
It’s the same with tanks, you enforce a 2/2/2 but nothing says you’ll have a good Winston or D.Va player that will be able to focus the Widow and take her down without putting their own team at risk.

You can apply that sentence in the current version of the game.

Yeah except she would need a huge buff to be able to compare to Zen and Lucio, even if you don’t like her.

Other cons that you haven’t mentioned yet:
You don’t always know what you want to play before entering a game mostly because it depends on the map you’ll play on. You can love playing DPS on a certain map but be really bad on others because the heroes that work on both maps are completely different. Same applies for all categories btw (a bit less for Support but anyway).

You’d be forcing a team comp that isn’t always the best. We have seen many comps that were not 2/2/2 and that were really good. Goats is the first example of it and even if a lot of people don’t like it, when it first came out it was really a good thing because we had Dive for more than a year and it was really getting old.
Many teamp comps can work outside of the 2/2/2 basic one. You can have successful 3dps comps, you can have solo heal, you can have solo tank, you can have quad tanks etc
It’s a bad thing to lock all these comps based on groundless assumptions.

If they want to troll, they’ll do it anyway. They can still switch to another hero or just completely stop caring and do stupid things like go 1v6 all the time or just not even trying. It doesn’t solve any issue here.

There is not one pro player who is really good on every single hero in Ow. That’s just impossible. They are all really good at their primary role, I’m sure most of them are really good at, at least, another role but they can’t play every single hero like that. That’s just not a thing.

There’s also the issue of having someone bad at their role. Let’s say you’re an off-heal and one of your dps is really bad. Right now you can ask them to switch with you and take their place to do the job if you’re better than them -It’s actually not that uncommon in higher ranks. It doesn’t work everytime but it does work often. Another thing is you have tanks that don"t play dive tanks (or nobody plays Winston for example) but you really need to dive if you don’t want to get destroyed. Right now you can ask someone else to take Winston and you’ll be able to switch. In your system you won’t so you will have no way of using the comp that you need and you’ll get destroyed very easily.
There’s also the fact that in your 2/2/2 thing, you can queue for Tank but you can only play off-tanks and not main tanks. If both do that your comp will be bad. same thing with supports - if you only have 2 off-heal that won’t be great. Same with dps if you have only 2 projectiles it won’t help. Yes you should not only play 1 role in the game but you can’t force anyone into learning every character for a specific class. Also you can’t add something like “tank/off-tank/main heal/off heal/dps hitscan/dps projectile/dps tracking” in the queue because you’d have trouble fitting each hero in the category.

For example : Monkey can be played as a main tank - like Dive for example - but he can also be played as an off-tank with Rein
Hammond : he is neither one nor the other and nobody agrees on what he is. He works well with Rein but also with Winston and Zarya.
Mercy: If you put her as a main heal in higher ranks she’ll never get picked since she’s almost only used as an off heal
Zen/Lucio : Classic Dive comp with 2 off-heal --> you won’t be able to do that
Etc

The only valid argument for role queue in your list is this one:

40

This wouldn’t be a problem if they would stop punishing groups.