Yes? no? Why? comment on why it is the right or wrong direction. the problem is the damage? the problem are the shields? missing heroes fit for purpose? lack of possibilities to do so? what’s not going on or what’s getting better?
No, I don’t like it.
While Sigma and Orisa are strong together, it doesn’t mean they are strong when combined with other tanks. These changes make this specific duo combo get less value from their resources, but won’t break their synergy and will worse their combination with other tanks.
Well, it’s very Meta oriented changes, but I’m no high tier player to be affected by this meta, at my casual level it’s Rein that is the best tank to enable and work around, and it will remain the same. Now I guess Rein will also potentially return to the meta in high tiers.
Imagine this: There’s no “get good” with other tanks in the tank roster, there’s just Rein. You enter the ladder and Rein is more effective, you climb and Rein is meta, why should I invest time playing other tanks that even if I improve and climb I won’t be effective with them? I might only be effective above Diamond in a well coordinated teamwork environment, but even now Rein might be the meta.
7 Likes
Balancing for this
h.t.t.p.s://i.imgur.com/4J6llcg.jpg
When ladder looks like this
h.t.t.p.s://i.imgur.com/q7knFsh.jpg
It just locks in Reinhardt and Zarya even more.
Forced 2-2-2
Tanks, when tanky, are able to survive getting swarmed by DPSes. Imagine solo tanking against a 1-4-1. To survive that, you had to be an actual tank.
1 tank main on a main tank = 4 DPS (pre-rolelock)
When your balancing an equal number of tanks and DPSes, you have to neuter the tanks to keep the DPS from getting overwhelmed.
2 tanks = 2 DPS
As long as we’re balancing for 2-2-2, tanks cannot be allowed to be Tanky. And when we’re balancing for GM 2-2-2 where they can get high value out of a hero. The rest of ladder will have to settle for paper tanks.
4 Likes
Well they stopped to care about ladder. The direction makes sense for professional play and for ladder… tanks Q 20 sec, supports some minutes ans dps often over 10. Nerfing brig and 2 tanks will not make ot better for sure
2 Likes
What direction? They’re doing the same thing they always do, nerf things rather than rework them or fixing core design issues. And repeating till nothing is playable.
They did a poor job designing the other shield Tanks and now they’re paying for it.
3 Likes
The spend less time shooting at blue rectangles direction.
I figure, if they are going in that direction, then go further.
I dont, but at this point, I want these changes done with. Blizzars cares about DPS only. Everyone being DPS would equal a fun game for the majority and the Pros. So, Blizzard should just end Tanks & Healers’ suffering already.
1 Like
Honestly shooting shields isn’t so bad but when it was the only way to get past them, then you get problems.
Making all shields resource based would solve that issue. Every bit of damage you did would add up to destroy the shield, and you could also bait the enemy to changing angles or picking their shield up to flee.
Ima copy-paste a post I made.
By nerfing individual barriers, while it seems that it would make double barrier worse, ergo less common, just makes individual barriers worse too, meaning that they just force double barrier even more? Until some rules or punishments are imposed onto double-barrier teams, like banning barrier heroes after one is picked, or giving teams limited barrier health, the issue won’t go away from nerfing barriers alone, until barriers eventually become so bad that even two of them doesn’t protect a team.
Blizzard is just making double barrier more necessary.
2 Likes
No. We don’t need tanks to suffer again because Sigma is the best main tank and off tank in the game. They should just make his barrier the obsolete aspect of his kit so even when we have double barriers one of the shields is weak so it doesn’t really matter. He’s the reason we’ve been experiencing these degenerate tank metas for a year now even though tank meta was quite premium quality with plenty of variance post-RQ pre-Sigma’s release. Nerfing tanks because they’d be oppressive with only Sigma is a reason why a big chunk of tank players decided to quit the game. Balancing a hero at the expense of other heroes is toxic
Oh and don’t get me wrong, Sigma is my second most played tank recently and I think that he’s fun so no personal issue with him at all
1 Like
No. They are making double barrier worse by making sigma and orisa an offtank. It’s a horrid idea.
Sigma
self damage removed
shield: 600 hp 60hps recovery
rock: 8s 60 damage
balls: untouched
grasp: 50% suck 12s
Orisa
gun untouched
health 150 armor 250
shield 800 hp 10s
fortify 25% reduction 10s
halth! 5m 25m/s 8s but starts when shot instead of activated
I mean SIgma is busted without Orisa. If Orisa did not exist the meta would simply be Sigma/Rein. Sigma is a constant. He simply does too much and even doing it okay is doing it too well because being a jack of all trades is better than being a master of 1.
weak main tank =/= off tank
sigma was always an off tank, his problem is that he has a main tank shield, hence double shield meta. Had they instantly nerfed the barrier to the ground or made it work differently we wouldn’t have had doubl barrier
It’s made me finally quit tanking for good because at the level I play, Rein will be the only viable pick in 9 out of 10 games. That remaining 1 will be the times I run into a Rein main, or we take turns, so I get to play Zarya. It won’t even be possible to psudo-main tank with Sigma anymore and Orisa may as well be deleted. I think the only people who will continue to queue for tank will be the Hog and Ball players who don’t care about team comp.
I think it might be time to pack this game in until OW2 and see if things improve there. Blizz can introduce AI tanks next patch since we’re only here now so the dps can have fun.
1 Like
I actually hate the whole experimental card. The changes just kill certain characters, nerf other that dont need nerfs or give just not rly important/significant small buffs.
Orisa is completly unplayable in experimental. And Orisa is currently allrdy trash as MT and even more so as solo barrier/anchor tank.
Just to get on thr point: Rein-like barriers are fair, because you make the trait that you either shield OR attack but still keep a good mobility.
Orisas barriers are fair, because even while dhe can normally attack while have a barrier in up, her barriers are immobile and you have to place them correct for sizuations needed.
Sigmas barrier is completly unbalanced because she id even more mobile than Reins barrier, he can attack while his barrier is used, his barrier has a lot shorter cooldown than Orisas and if that isnt enough, he also can use grasp to get additional dmg blocked.
In a nutshell:
Step 1 - Remove Sigmas barrier, she if just unhealthy and cant be balanced in any way to please the gameplay.
Step 2 - Rework Sigma to a proper Off-Tank, give him more hp, male grasp better (shorter cd, make it cancelable by the player, blocks all sources of dmg etc.) And tweak his dmg s bit up maybe
Step 3 - Bring back Pre-Sigma Orisa as proper MT with a less effective Halt but better survivability
Step 4 - Dont even think again release a MT/Off-tank hybrid again
Step 5 - More tanks are playable, Orisa is viable as anchor tank again, Sigma becomes a good alternative to Zarya or Hog
Step 6 - more players ate interested to play tank, everyone wins.
2 Likes
I still don’t like the way they are dealing with him.
I’d rather have the barrier be a secondary aspect, lets say a temporary ability, but keep a strong niche somewhere else.
I like the change being something absolutely has to be done to knock Sigma/Orisa out of the core meta. You will still need to run Orisa on Junker Town, Havana and a few other maps. Yet that’s fine, that’s how it should be balance wise.
Hog isn’t this near instant throw pick for meh level ranks anymore if the player can hit the hooks.
Orisa’s new pull rewards faster reactions to pull a couple of target being you can’t just throw it anywhere and have it hit everyone anymore.
If you can hit the shots, Zen hits harder. You can also get away with a lot more comps at average sort of play levels being neither Sigma or Orisa is as stifling in their over all CC or area control now.
Yeah team are still going to need to run a main tank in most comps but the door is open for more off tanks to work and for range DPS to not be 100% smothered by shields. I get some don’t like this but it’s very possible that Rein just has to be the #1 tank balance wise for this game to work and be fun for the rest of the players.
There’s nothing wrong with dropping down the survivability of both of these heroes, since they are currently responsible for drastically slowing down the pace of the game.
But just crippling the defensive power of both of them with nothing given in exchange? And… leaving the other tanks the same?
Didn’t we try this already… oh… just about six months ago?
Sigma’s barrier was 1500 hp that went from 175 regen to 150 to early on, and then got reduced even further to 900 hp with 120 regen. Orisa’s damage got reduced.
What happens? People stop playing orisa and sigma, and everyone plays rein/dva. Pretty much D.Va was only because her jets got a huge cooldown buff and she still offered the power to eat projectile ults that sigma used to provide.
Then Sigma’s stun gets buffed to be faster and more consistent, and everyone jumps back to sigma.
Why does anyone think this is going to be any different?
If you want to break the power of the double shield composition by ALL MEANS do so, but consider what that does to the heroes who were only viable in this composition.
If you want to start scaling back tank/barrier survivability to eventually increase tank’s damage and carry potential, why not start by doing it RIGHT NOW?
By all means, reduce the defensive power of both heroes. But counter-balance that by increasing both of their offensive potential. Relatively minor changes that would still offset their now sub-par kits.
For Orisa
- Buff up fusion driver’s damage to 12 per hit or her fire rate from 12 rounds per second to 13 rounds per second. (increasing her dps from 132 to 144 which is respectable but still lower than any dps hero)
- Add a small amount of damage to halt (10-20).
For Sigma
- Buff the damage from direct accretion impacts from 70 to 80
- Increase the minimum Hypersphere splash damage per sphere from 9 to 15 but reduce the splash radius from 3m to 2.5m
- bump the accretion splash radius up from 2.5 to 3m without changing the falloff point, so that accretion does the minimum 12 damage over the 2.5-3m radius up to 40 at the same radius as before.
I would honestly say there’s nothing wrong with even bumping the accretion radius up to 3.5m if you don’t change the damage, since the splash damage is mostly just a bonus added to the impact damage + stun.
Never really understood why rock has a smaller splash radius than hyperspheres anyway since it is a giant freakin’ rock. I mean it made sense when the hero was originally using dual rocket launchers, but he’s Sigma now. Giant gravity rock > small gravity bombs.
Really happy Orisa is getting gutted. Not sure about Sigma because nerfing a bloated character’s abilities makes them clunky to play. He simply needs an ability taken away from his kit and a range reduction. Add some more shield health and we good.
Overall happy because as a primarily off tank player I want less Orisa in my games at high masters.