Did we learn nothing from Reaper?

General Discussion
310

LMAO.

Low elo players don’t understand fundamental principles of this game. What precisely is magic about that statement?

So how do you expect people with zero competency to be able to make legitimate criticisms and propose balance changes for a system they don’t understand. It’s like a freshly enrolled economy student proposing a bill to change fundamentally the financial system when they have no clue what they are talking about. Nothing magical, common sense :smiley:

You don’t balance around bad players, period. It’s utter chaos and a complete mess of a jungle with people having no clue what they are doing. Literally gives you zero indication of balance.

How? Should Blizzard hire personal tutors to teach people how to be good? LMAO.

Well, I don’t know because recently Reaper was nerfed since apparently low elo players can’t deal with the easiest hero to deal with in the game? :smiley: Making him yet a gain a throw pick anywhere decent. Reaper needed to be buffed, not nerfed again. But they caved in to people who want the game to be even further casualized.

I’m not saying she is impossible to balance. I’m saying she is impossible to balance when catering to both the complete bottom end of the spectrum and the top. There’s a pretty big freaking difference :smiley:

Straw-man 101 - take words or arguments out of context or twist them to where they don’t resemble the original.

Evidently not because Symmetra is now worse in lower ranks and worse in higher ranks. She has even worse pick-rate than before (and before it was abysmal) and her win-rate is also worse than before. She is objectively worse than before, used by less people and with a lesser win-rate and she is the worst DPS in the game bar none. By all accounts a failure. This is backed up by significant amount of data.

Do you even understand what I’m saying? Fundamentally, I can play any hero in this game so balancing changes matter little to me personally. I can always swap to another hero that is currently on the top of the meta. I’m arguing from a fundamental principle and logical, common sense. To me personally, it doesn’t matter if a hero is nerfed or not - I can play them all competitively and all my fundamental skills are solid. That still doesn’t change the fact that the game should be balanced for the top.

Where’s the evidence of that? All evidence point to the contrary, pick-rate, win-rate, statistics, usage.

Already explained.

LMAO. I don’t think you are any credible source or authority or have any experience to gauge that :smiley:

And nerfed him back - taking away something is called a nerf. Look it up.

I’ve already explained why and even gave you two examples. :smiley: The fact that you don’t understand it is not my problem at all.

Literally zero substance post with emotive language - muh sadism and oppression .:smiley:

I’m not preaching discovery of the hot water - this is literally a concept done for the last 20+ years in the entire FPS genre. :smiley:

It’s like having a class of students and giving them an easier test because some of them can’t be bothered to study.

Where’s the evidence for anything you say?

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Where is your evidence they don’t understand the fundamental principles of the game?

Why do you get to decide what the fundamental principles of the game are?

I don’t.

No. No period. No full stop. No ellipses. No exclamation mark.

You make claim, you follow it with proof.

Again, you are acting as if “balance around” means do what lower skilled players say rather than intelligently taking into account how they actually play or are capable of playing the game.

No, you grow up and be a competent game designer and designs the game in a way that works for a typical range of skills.

Reaper was not nerfed recently.

But that is what was done.

No, you misinterpreted what I meant.

Where is the evidence of this?

No, her pickrate is almost unchanged, it was about 0.9% before her big rework and it’s currently hovering around 0.9%. Win rate is also similarly under no significant change.

The main goal was achieved, she wasn’t too good in lower ranks but rose in viability in upper ranks, a net neutral change by balancing around both high and low ranks. Could she do with some buffs of the right sort, sure. And they may very well come.

What data? How does that data show that?

What common sense?

What logic?

What fundamental principle?

Your snap judgement that you’ve never justified is none of those things.

That is not a fact.

How does pick rate or win rate refute the factual existence of Symm mains on these forums who undeniably enjoy her current state and vociferously defend her. That proves it’s not universal.

If that’s all you’re referring to that’s irrelevant.

Reaper’s lifesteal still DOUBLED from 20% lifesteal to 40% lifesteal.

Just like if my rent went up from $200 to $500 then down to $400, my landlord can’t claim “I reduced your rent by $100 so you have no reason to complain”.

Where? When? Who established this? Where was this recognised? What are you even talking about?

No it’s like a prosecutor accusing an innocent man of a crime and when his lawyer asks for any proof of his client’s guilt he can’t present any proof at all to the court except to say “it’s logical” and “it’s common sense” and “oh come on it’s obvious he did it, everyone thinks he’s guilty!”

Where is the evidence for my questions to ask for your evidence?

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LMAO. The evidence is in the fact that they are low elo players :smiley: This is becoming a debate whether gravity exists or not :smiley:

You do realize that - mechanical skill, situational awareness, positioning etc. are fundamental principles in every FPS game since the inception of the genre roughly 20+ years ago.

There you go.

And I provided the proof on multiple occasions.

And again, you can’t balance around that because it’s literally not a viable source of information because these people don’t play the characters properly. Nor is it possible to balance that and at the same time balance for the top.

Which is what we have currently? LMAO :smiley:

Yes, he was. Might want to check those patch notes.

And it evidently failed.

LMAO. 10% drop in win-rate is not a significant change.

The main goal was to increase popularity and make her more mainstream. Instead her pickrate which was abysmal already dropped and her win-rate dropped as well dramatically. Stop making stuff up man :smiley: That isn’t an opinion, that’s a fact. Symmetra is absolutely not viable in upper ranks and if you claim that with a straight face you know nothing about this game.

LMAO. You are straight up making stuff up. Are you not seeing the constant Sym threads asking for fixing Sym?

LMAO. You live in some alternative reality. I provided you with plenty of evidence and then some.

Enjoy the emotive language but it’s fundamentally useless. Refusing to provide any evidence for the stuff you say just shows how little you understand this topic.

At any rate, debating with you is pointless. The fact that you claim Sym is viable at the top ranks literally tells you me you understand nothing about the current state of the game or balance.

Ta!

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I’m getting bored of your sloppy reasoning.

Just because they’re unable to execute them well doesn’t mean they don’t understand the fundamental principles of the game.

Yeah, and the emperor has some fantastic clothes. I wonder if you’ll get that reference.

Why do you get to decide what is “proper”?

Why?

You just said that was impossible.

It hasn’t dropped 10%.

Neither 10% of the win percentage or an absolute drop in percentage win rateb y 10%.

But you’re making all of that up.

Where did I say she was “viable”?

How does that prove that Symm mains don’t exist?

How does even symm mains generally supporting those threads prove that they don’t generally like her but just think she needs a little more.

Impassively asking you for proof and reason isn’t emotive language. You may be having an emotional response but that’s 100% on you.

I agree, you don’t have the evidence to back up your claim and the little evidence that is not in dispute you cannot apply any reason or logic as to why that backs up your claims.

The fact is I never said Symm is viable in the top ranks.

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Just stop arguing…

Ravenna is just a skill-elitist who doesn’t give anything about lower ranks and only screams “Muh skill”

The entire argument has been him saying, because they are lower ranks and for the rest only ego statements about his rank or his job.

Fact is, you balance from the top and see how the game is played. BUT you always keep in mind how this affects the lower ranks, because you can’t break their game. They are the ones that are keeping the game alive, plat and below is almost 85% of the playerbase. If they get screwed, Overwatch dies.

Thank god Blizzard understands that and people like Ravenna have nothing to say in balance decisions

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Skill elitist :smiley: What does that even mean? :smiley: I take no qualms about being good. I put skill and time to get to where I am.

I’m a her if that’s not painfully obvious with a name like that. Also I’m not the one who brought up my job :smiley:

Except nobody low elo is getting screwed LMAO :smiley: Nobody is oppressing you, least of all Blizzard. It’s not Blizzard’s fault you are not good or you don’t want to improve. Should they hire you a personal tutor? :smiley:

Blizzard is balancing for the top 99% of the time so I got no clue what you are thanking for when the devs have the same idea as me (technically we all have the same idea cause it’s the logical idea to balance for the top).

You don’t balance around bad players just like you don’t make a test easier cause some students don’t want to study.

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317

Reaper is close to a throw pick, primarily relying on his enemies to play poorly in order to be effective. Name any “close-ranged” hero and they probably are better than Reaper in his effective range.

Hog? Combo deletes Reaper. Will just TaB and flee to his team if the hook is successfully wraith dodged. Hog can kill Reaper without any abilities due to his longer range secondary fire. (Seriously, Hog gets a choked shotgun fire in a SCRAP gun but Reaper can’t have a choked SHOTGUN mode?) Hook has a stun and will stop Death Blossom. He can fully face tank a blossom without a TaB.

Mei? Pretty much a counter to Reaper. Her primary fire will force Reaper to wraith out or be frozen, which means he must reset back to his team. Her wall will prevent his escape or engagement of her team, and can effectively block Death Blossom. She can ice block if Reaper does get the drop on her, which also saves her from a Blossom.

McCree? Flash and fan is a dead Reaper. His primary fire will kill Reaper dead long before he gets in range. Flash-bang stuns and will stop a Death Blossom. Can maintain his range with his Roll and/or use its free reload to out DPS Reaper.

Torb? Turret will mercilessly whittle at Reaper’s health, and Torb’s Overload makes him a hard target and he can kill Reaper outright with the damage+health+fire rate buff it gives or use it to effectively flee from Reaper back to his turret. He dramatically out-ranges Reaper with a zero-falloff primary fire and has a shotgun mode if Reaper closes in.

Tracer? Her mobility is vastly superior to Reaper’s. Her high damage primary and longer fall-off allow her to out-range Reaper. If he does get the drop on her, the slim hitbox will likely cause Reaper’s huge spread to work against him. She’ll recall, blink, and kill Reaper at her leisure or retreat to a health-pack as needed.

He’s a joke, and he will always be. Every other hero that you could compare Reaper to either has superior range, utility, or mobility… sometimes all three. Reaper is the prince of mediocrity. Mediocre mobility, lousy range, zero utility.

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318

Takes her 1.5 sec to freeze Reaper at an absolute minimum, long enough for Reaper to get off at least 3 shots, maybe 4 shots. That’s 420-560 damage.

Even if it’s only 3 shots because Mei shot first, reaper needs to only land about 55% hit rate to frag Mei, less if any of those pellets are headshot. And reaper can wriath when he’s getting close to being frozen then decide to run away or immediately leave wraith with the freeze being cancelled.

Now sure Mei can ice-block but Reaper will just be waiting for her and there’s a good chance more enemies will have turned up.

I don’t think Mei is very good fighting against a Reaper… however she is good at stealing his job.

She’s really good at getting in there and screwing with tanks because she doesn’t have to kill the tank, no matter how much health they have, it doesn’t matter how much they are healed, they’re frozen in 1.5 seconds the same as low HP heroes. And that’s a death sentence in a team.

mei’s ability to stall out in a forward position with immunity and healing herself can really help. Unlike Reaper wraithing away, you can’t leave pursue the enemy and leave mei behind you. Yet waiting on her and she’ll just wall her way to victory.

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That doesn’t work in reality.

His guns are terrible. The fact that they won’t reduce his insane spread and fall-off will ALWAYS hamstring Reaper. The removal of the “all-or-nothing” crit bug was effectively a nerf for Reaper. It made his attacks more consistent… unfortunately due to the spread, that means more consistently bad. You could one shot a squishy before the bug fix, now not so much.

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surprised pikachu meme

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Ashe is better and will still be better than Mccree in every way except for stunning…

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I went frame by frame, those weren’t bad hits.

Maybe I’m a bit to used to playing as Bastion recon where his soccer-goal sized hitbox catches pellets like a feather catches the breeze.

Where does that leave reaper? What really should be done with him? Because people clearly aren’t happy with him even before his lifesteal was brought down from 50% to 40% his pickrate was falling.

Meanwhile despite no real changes to Mei, her pickrate is rising.

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It’s the meta.

Mei has always been a solid pick against bunker, and when that becomes meta, will Mei’s pickrate rise as well.

I expect McCree’s and Reaper’s pickrate to drop. They aren’t that strong against bunker after all.

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Reaper has zero range. Hanzo and Widow can delete people from safety instead of being front and center feeding ult charge to the enemy and their supports.

Reaper has limited mobility. Tracer, Genji, Hammond, and Doomfist have mobility abilities that have no cool-down or can be chained together almost indefinitely.

Reaper has zero utility. He can’t stop enemy ults and abilities like Hog and McCree can with their stuns or block them like Mei can with Wall.

The Reaper problem is the same as the Moira problem. Moira is one of the best healers in the game on paper, but she has zero utility. When you face competent enemies, focus fire and one-shots become common and utility is more valuable than massive healing… making every other healer a better choice. Reaper has massive damage with zero range to it, and no utility, making every other hero a better choice.

  • Hanzo and Widow one-shot from a distance and have utility (both have team wall-hacks, super useful at higher ranks)
  • McCree, Torb, Doomfist, and Hog have better utility, providing constant back-line defense and stuns, along with much better range and high burst damage.
  • Tracer, Genji, Hammond, and Doomfist survive in the enemy back-line more easily. Nano-blade is the best ult-combo in the game statistically.
  • Every other DPS out-ranges Reaper.

High-output, low-range, low-mobility, zero-utility heroes will always struggle against competent enemies. Moira and Reaper are two peas in a pod.

He needs range or utility (i.e. a rework), but likely will get neither.

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325

Can we please get some parity in OP buffs at least? Tanking is sad when every time Blizz breaks the meta, it’s to allow a new DPS to melt you way faster than the previous OP hero. The only time I can think of them really breaking things outside of DPS heroes, it was by giving a healer the capacity to 1v1 tanks. Feels pretty bad.

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The problem as I diagnose it is Reaper’s wraith form is nowhere near quick enough.

Only 50% faster while fully visible, it’s way too easy for enemies to keep up behind you and in that time you’ve only managed to get about 8m between you and them if they follow behind and they’re a 5.5m/s hero, you won’t be able to put many corners between you and them. If you escaped for low health they’ll probably be within line of sight of you when you exit wraith form to finish you off. Soldier 76 can obviously keep up.

If Wraith form had you move at 2x speed, 11 metres per second, that would be worthwhile. Same 3 second duration to give 33m range, which would give parity on the range of shadow step. This still wouldn’t be as good as Tracer’s recall, but Reaper has a lot more surviveability than Tracer with higher HP and lifesteal.

His spread doesn’t need to be tightened much, he does have a way higher capacity than tracer.

While Reaper can fire 3 shots in barely more than 1 second 420 damage within a circular area of 9.7m2 at 10m range.

in 1 second Tracer deals 240 damage within a circle of 0.3m2 area at 10m range.

So although reaper does about 75% more damage in basically the same amount of time, it’s diluted in a x32 larger area. Reaper would have to be within 2.3m to have his fire have the same concentration of damage within a given area as Tracer does at 10m.

How much of a compensation is lifesteal, higher capacity and higher health pool to that?

It is kind of silly how wide Reaper’s spread is, would you tolerate Reaper taking a per-shot damage nerf to get a narrower spread? Like down to 6 damage per pellet, 120 damage per shot, but also back to 50% lifesteal (slightly better lifesteal per shot) but a spread around 12 to 15 degrees?

If his spread was 12 degrees then at 10m his spread’s width would mean pellets would land within the height of most heroes. And would have to be within about 5m to have the spread be as wide as McCree’s hitbox is wide. However the more square heroes like bastion would easily always be taking 100% damage so will really suffer.

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Straw man.

It’s not a pipe dream. Has been done before.

ad hominem

Another Straw man

Another Ad hominem

Basically you can’t make an argument. All you do is attack the person or make up fake arguments that you can win.

You are an actual troll. Go away.

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Brigg, Moira, Sym, Sombra, Orisa, Torb, Mei, are also hero’s people who aren’t good at the game use to make up for their lack of skill. What’s your point?

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Really? Sombra on that list?

I mean, none of these heroes are particularly oppressive, and have enough of a kit that they’re used at top ranks as well.

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Why? Perfectly apt analogy.

Example? When? How?

No, it’s not. Reaper is not OP, where is the evidence? No decent player has problem countering Reaper. That’s a fact. Zero evidence for Reaper being OP, which means it’s a problem of the player not playing properly, not the hero.

It’s literally the point of this thread. Nerfing a character that’s actually weak because you can’t learn how to play against him.

LMAO, nice try in general but very feeble execution.

I’m perfectly fine where I am.

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