Well Widow’s isn’t so…
I love it when people use lo. This is a
game set in the 2060s with talking robots, flying cars, a time travelling lesbian, a woman with a slowed heartbeat, an angel suit that heals with nanobots, magical dragons and more. Is this really where you wanna apply “real life” logic?
Because their projectiles don’t hit instantly and at long distances you have PLENTY of time to avoid them.
Except at a large distance you’d BE LUCKY AF to land 5 projectiles in a row lmao. That’s why they do more.
McCree CAN hit 5 shots in a row at that distance. Projectiles it’s probably impossible in a normal game.
Way to completely miss the point. Did you even see the gif? Do you fully comprehend the big picture? IF someone was actually skilled enough to manage to hit 5 shots on a clump of tiny pixels as Cree from that far away, THAT’S 110 DAMAGE.
WOW
And how many times does Hanzo have to hit body shots for a kill? TWO.
The same amount that he needs to kill a 200 hp hero if they were 5 feet in front of him.
BUT OMG IT TAKES SO MUCH MROE SKILL TO HIT A HANZO ARROW BEYOND 50 METERS WAH WAH WAH HERPA DERP.
Ok kids, keep kidding yourselves any of your BS gradeschool level reasonings as to how this is fair are anything but weak whiney nonsense because you just can’t stand hitscan and are totally fine with Hanzo being 5x the danger of Cree post 50 meters simply because Hanzo doesn’t have the Hitscan label.
If you think a skilled Hanzo player has difficulty hitting shots you’re simply dumb, there’s no nice way to put it.
I think a Skilled Hanzo player would in fact have trouble hitting shots at 50m because the aim has to account for where the enemy would be in the next 0.5s at such a range.
If the enemy turned around, stopped moving or used any ability that slightly moves them, you miss.
I’m sure you’ve watched Arrge?
… that is my reddit user and I did do the math on that…
as said to OP earlier:
and the whole point of the math in that post was to show at what theoretical point does prediction can’t really matter much as the enemy would have enough leniency to react to the shot retroactively. i.e. the degree of how inherently inconsistent the projectiles at the design and balance numbers are.
like you can have the best prediction in the world, but if the projectile is slow enough and the target is far enough that the target can deterministically move out of the trajectory because it takes so long to reach them, it doesn’t matter how well aimed or how much prediction went into that shot, it landing simply all that much up to you.
and again, there’s the inherently variability before that point:
> you: you’re exaggerating by saying some projectiles are hugely inconsistent that the target needs to be blind or disabled to dodge and thus saying hitscans are insanely accurate
> me: I am slightly exaggerating and to show that I’m only slightly exaggerate, explain how does a slow projectile like sym’s land in decently long and common range?
> you: you don’t. just spam and pray
oh an saying 1 thing is more inconsistent than the other doesn’t imply that the other is hugely consistent.
you:
>it’s stupid that projectiles don’t have falloff damage and that they deal more damage per shot. they should be treated the same as hitscan
>you shouldn’t use projectiles like hitscan and only use them in shorter ranges because of how inconsistent they are the further away the target is
and slower projectiles are a lot more inconsistent even before that 30m mark e.g. 
amazing how you failed to see the point which was that the recoil is there to compensate the 0 spread, a characteristic that make a weapon fire more consistent in landing hits overall.
ashe gets an extra 10m min (min because ashe has spread unscoped) and widow gets an extra 50m min (min again because spread in unscoped fire).
firerate doesn’t change how consistent any particular shot is, only on an aggregated level (cause more trials fitted into a period of time).
instead projectiles have to deal with variability that they don’t have direct inputs over and it widens depending on range… 
ok in that zen example there, do you think zen orb sizes are like >=1m in diameter for that variability (0.5s which leads to a possible approx 2.75m of target movement variability) to not matter?
splash damage is portion of the full damage and has radial fall-off and not every splash has pushback. like you simply cannot equate dealing only splash damage with landing directs with hitscan or landing directs with projectiles that actually care about directs. what are you on about?
do you have trouble reading or focusing on the topic at hand? because this whole thread is talking about why projectiles don’t have falloff and generally higher damage numbers per shot.
It’s plain and simple, hitscan is too consistent at dealing damage. Falloff is the only real way to remove some of its consistency without adjusting the raw damage numbers or introducing flinch mechanics.
Projectiles are intrinsically inconsistent, so it’s only natural for them to have no falloff.
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No it’s not, it’s a complete fallacy that skilled Hanzo players can’t hit shots at various ranges as well as a skilled hitscan, and that makes Hanzo realistically more lethal than Cree vs most other heroes since Hanzo only needs 2 max power body shots at any range to kill a 200 HP hero. He is currently absolutely more deadly than Cree in nearly any situation. The only thing Cree has going for him over a Hanzo pick is flash/rightclick. But of course average base level thinking players who can’t see more than 2 feet in front of them will continue to buy into this hitscan = overpowered godlike BS.
Go on overbuff and look at the comp weapon accuracy stats for the top Hanzo players vs. the top Widowmaker, McCree and Ashe players. You’ll notice that on average, The hitscans have at least 10% higher weapon accuracy which, considering the number of shots fired per game, is actually a very significant amount.
Even though Hanzo has a high projectile speed, he is still objectively less accurate than a hitscan hero over long range. With a hitscan, if your crosshair is on the target and there are no obstructions between you and the target, it is a guaranteed hit (not accounting for netcode issues and no-regs). With projectiles, there is ALWAYS an element of uncertainty involved in longer range shots. Furthermore, Hanzo’s projectiles have an arc, so it is not just a matter of judging the speed of the projectile, but also the trajectory.
If projectiles had damage falloff, then it would be extremely punishing to land any long range shots at all, since it happens less than hitscan, and you wouldn’t be getting much reward for landing the unlikely long range shot.
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I mean I fully understood his point but yeah it’s obvious that Projectile characters cannot compete as is vs Hitscan at long ranges toe to toe and must seek cover if they do indeed find themselves in such a situation. Unless they ofc have taken said Hitscan by complete surprise and land a few shots early.
By their very nature projectiles are harder to get direct hits with than hitscan.
Depending on the speed, distance, and size of the projectile there is an additional layer of difficulty. Hitscan must simple aim at the enemy and shoot. Landing a projectile involves prediction because there’s an amount of time between shooting and your projectile landing during which the enemy might have moved.
You can argue that you don’t think the difficulty gap is big enough to matter, but you can’t deny that that it exists.
Pharah and Junkrat are the classic examples of needing to predict to land your shots. Their explosion radius is supposed to give them some leniency because hitting direct shots is very difficult for them.
You forgot lag compensation.
Which explains why sometimes Hanzo’s arrow just… curved to your head XD
and that’s not necessarily always going to work in favor of the shooter. not to mention hitscan benefits more from “favor the shooter” due how little delays there are from shot being fired to “reaching the target”/target getting hit.
but the main point is that projectiles have a significant source of error that gets wider with longer range, hence why projectiles generally don’t have the same falloff damage mechanic as hitscans.
I said that as add on to your point and not disagreing with you or anything
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Do you buddy?
Because you just got called out on an overexaggeration and every post you create pivots 3-4 more times with 1 of my sentences. Its not that I cant keep up, at this point is annoying when someone nitpicks 1 sentence and when gets refuted, starts talking about something else Ive never argued against, like for example “prediction is not absolute”. Like what? Never said that, but you act like players dont predict AT ALL.
Dude, the WHOLE point is that we know why projectiles dont have falloff and generally higher damage numbers. We know. Did you read that? Let me reiterate:
WE KNOW.
The issue is that when you increase the damage penalty to hitscans to that extent, the ratio of “balance” (on the fall off range) goes off. Like HARD.
Why? Because projectiles on average do numbers that are EXPONENTIALLY bigger than hitscans. When you add the hitbox and the AOE damage, then it becomes stupid.
All you wrote before, refutes nothing, just mischaracterizes what I said because you got called out, so dont wreck your brain, let me reiterate the FACTS:
- Hitting targets with hitscans is NOT easy (like you all like to pretend) when the enemy is at 45+ mt away.
- It is harder on projectile. But the damage per bullet/orb/whatever, the bigger hitbox and in some cases the AOE added, makes the comparison stupid. Specially on 45+mt distances.
Your reply was overexaggerated and with appeal to ridicule fallacy.
Thats all there is. Since you are not clearly admitting it, this ends here 
the fact that you call my points “pivots” and that you’re unable to see how they’re directly relevant counterpoints that cumulatively disproves your arguments is exactly how you aren’t keeping up.
no, my arguments have been completely independent of players predictive capabilities. i.e. the zen shooting at a target 45m away example whereby there’s like 2.75m-ish or so variability for the target strafing around of which the zen has 0 control over. that variability/source of error is inherently there no matter how good the zen’s predictive capabilities are.
- most projectiles with splash don’t work like ana’s nade whereby getting touched by splash applies the full effect/damage, in most cases splash is <=50% of the damage of the shot (hmmm ain’t this a familiar concept…kinda like hitscan fall-off
). to treat only landing splash as equivalent to a direct shot is simply disingenuous and stupidity. - bih I already showed you the objective math in the reddit post I wrote showing all the ranges which projectiles mathematically can be reactively dodged and a lot of them are lower than >=45m (not to mention taking into account reactions times + projectile size).
- and before you go “but it doesn’t take into account prEDiCtION”: the dead center scenario is legit geometrically the median scenario.
- e.g. if they’re heading to your right so you aim further to your right, them changing directions and going the opposite direction (your left) geometrically makes them have a much shorter distance to travel to get out of the projectile’s trajectory compared to the dead center scenario.
- and before you go “but it doesn’t take into account prEDiCtION”: the dead center scenario is legit geometrically the median scenario.
I alluded to it before here already somewhere but you cannot gauge lethality simply based on the accuracy stat when you have damage changing depending on distance which that stat doesn’t take into account. It tells not even half the story. In the gif I linked, Hanzo makes a kill in 1.10 seconds, Cree takes 4.2. Cree’s accuracy alone without changing damage to come close to Hanzo’s lethality at that distance would have to increase nearly 3x which is impossible.
I’m not sure why people feel that just because a Hanzo arrow manages to hit a target at VERY long range which let’s be honest at that point is likely heavily influenced by luck unless the target is standing still, deserves its full close range damage. The argument for it is that it needs the damage to compensate for loss of accuracy, so in other words, “Let’s reward you for you lack of ability to aim at long distances”. How does that make sense? Why is an inaccurate aimer obligated to get rewarded for bad aim?
But Cree gets massively punished because it’s apparently SO MUCH EASIER to hit tiny pixels at the same long range. I have news for you, it’s not 5x easier.
Yeah you keep telling yourself that, like you havent been pivoting and strawmaning hard.
Sure bud, sure.
I already debunked this dude, do you have memory issues?
Not counting prediction when talking about projectiles its like me pretending people dont control recoil with soldier. Those are ACTIVE factors to be consider in realistic scenarios but like I already proved before:
Your scenarios are not realistic.
You are literally talking ANY realistic factor and calling “dodgeable” ranges when specifically measuring it in a 1v1 scenario, where nothing is going on, and both players have perfect positioning to dodge to any side.
Again:
Just because something is “dodgeable” doesnt mean the average player will dodge it 100% of the times in a REALISTIC scenario.
Your maths do not represent a realistic scenario. You have nothing mate.
Its all debunked. And thats not even counting favor of the shooter.
Thats all there is. Again - telling it like it is 
No more replies since you are just rolling over the same unrealistic scenarios, not taking into account key factors on purpose because otherwise your maths fail.
Bye.
I don’t believe anyone has made that claim in this thread.
It is easier to dodge a projectile at range than it is to avoid hitscan damage thats why hitscan has falloff.
What obviously is being claimed though is that everyone can magically see arrows and icecicles being launched at them the majority of the time and they all have the chance to try and doge.
This is another example of outlandish BS that sounds good on paper that is nowhere close to what happens in game. The vast majority of the time, no one sees the icicles or arrows coming, and the vast majority sure as hell don’t have the reaction time or aren’t already preoccupied performing another action to then try and dodge them. The reason most long range projectiles miss are because they are hard to aim, not because players have matrix reflexes to doge them. And bad aim or aiming far far outside of a range where prediction becomes close to impossible ls no legit excuse to reward shots that do land with as much damage as they would have if they hit a target 5 meters away.