A good Winston player is forced to swap as soon as the enemy team get Torb/Bastion/Reaper with a head on their shoulders.
A good Widow player is not forced to swap when against a Winston.
For me, I feel like that’s the difference.
I suck at Widow and consider myself a pretty alright Winston player (bad with primal though).
I’d, anyday, rather play Widow into Winston than Winston into Torb/Bastion/Reaper.
Good point. With less players, the support can give the Widow alot more attention.
Okay, but you’re missing the point.
You can’t hide behind cover ‘all the time’ it’s something you do to deny the Widow player a shot at key points. And at those key points widow players are faced with a choice. They can either wait for you to come out from behind cover (depending on the map, you could make her wait a long time. King’s Row when you’re on defense is a perfect example) meaning they have no shot and they aren’t helping their team, or they have to reposition to where they can get a shot, which makes it easier for you to take them down.
The entire point is kill denial or forcing them to reposition.
It’s never a permanent ‘counter solution’ because cover is extremely map dependent and it’s also dependent on whether you’re attacking or defending.
But if you can’t utilize cover effectively, that doesn’t mean you’re out of options, because the second best way to deny Widow players kills is just to apply pressure. Obviously you want to try to kill them, that would be the ‘best’ solution, but if you can’t do that, making sure the Widow player can’t get a shot because they have to keep ducking behind cover to survive is the next best thing.
IMO the best ways to avoid dying to a Widow are:
Flank and dive is more suicidal than you think in 5v5.
Without that second offtank you’re gonna have an issue there.
Not to mention dive is effective when coordinated otherwise its just enemy teams picking off ballsy stragglers or shooting down trickles of muted solo que players.
I’d still say it’s the wrong argument.
Obviously Widow can be counterplayed, it’s just that beyond CounterSniping, it’s just really a very unenjoyable, frustrating and boring play experience to do so.
And that those are horrible aspects to have in your “gameplay quality”.
And you’d probably gain more players than you lose, if that was more enjoyable.
And the players you’d lose…don’t matter… In the big picture. Because there’s not enough of them to matter.
Shoot back into her head
Widow can get in certain spots that make it hard for Sombra or Tracer to dive her.
Tracer has no vertical mobility and Sombra has to use her transllcator which takes away her escape and can be risky.
She can also play far enough in some maps that Winston and D.va can’t just dive her. In the maps that she excels in(Like Havana) she is absolutely broken and cannot be properly countered.
But they’re not… you’re literally doing the thing…
Ask any Winston main and they’ll say that Reaper is a soft counter at best. Torb and Bastion are harder, but there are ways to play around them. Assuming there’s actually someone else to dive, Winston comps can be viable.
They literally can be though. If they’re not getting pocketed, they tend to just die to him.
Again, you’re just speaking in insane absolutes in this discussion and using 0 nuance. It’s why discussing anything gameplay related with gamers is like talking to a brick wall.
I know how to play Winston, I can play around Reaper to a certain extent. Why? Because he’s a hard counter. There’s only so much you can do.
Let me guess, jump has a lower cooldown than hook therefore you can chase her after it? There’s too many situations to this but let’s go through some.
Say you’re attacking as Winston and the Widow is defending. She just used grapple to try and get a hook shot. Do you just jump into the middle of/slightly behind her team 1v5 only to get her? No, that’s called feeding. You need at least 2 or 3 other teammates with you but keep in mind she has teammates of her own.
What if you are defending and she’s attacking instead? Do you do the same? Your life is arguably more valuable on defense than offense, because enemies will just get progress.
No offense but you literally did the same. Yeah she tends to die to him. In a isolated 1v1, if the rest of her team is dead, yeah obviously. But it’s 5v5.
This should be good.
Where pray tell, on Junkertown, do you flank through to reach Widow on first point?
Pray tell, on Junkertown, how do you dive the Widow when a good position from her is two to three jumps away for you?
I’m a Masters Winston. He is useless against a good Widow on Junkertown.
Pray tell, on Junkertown, how you reach her when her good position is at best two dashes away from the nearest flank?
You’ll exhaust two blinks bare minimum to begin the dive from the nearest flank and it’ll take you plenty more to reach it. And that’s if she just isn’t playing a further position. She’ll live because she’ll get peel early.
Potentially. But unlikely your team lives the 4v5 for the time taken to setup for it. Also they’ll prepare peel because well, it’s obvious.
You’ll lose on Junkertown. Or Havana, or Circuit Royale.
That’s… Not at all solving the issue? It’s a mirror, not a counter.
Isn’t a hitscan one shot. It’s a lot rarer, and since he plays a lot closer he is accessible for almost everyone to take shots at. I will be able to engage with the Hanzo on the vast majority of characters and he will have to move for me. All of the things you listed for Widow actually work on Hanzo funnily enough.
He doesn’t have the capability to control space in the same way, it is impossible to hit every shot as Hanzo because it is a projectile weapon, you can dodge them, you can peek him and play around him predicting your peeks. It’s a mindgame counterplay.
How does she sneak up on Junkertown pray tell?
He’ll be pressured out of there by a competent team well before he has time to keep chasing. This is not a good argument.
Life Grip. Suzu, Immort, general peel. Plus if they have a Mercy they will be able to get the res because Sombra cannot sustain it.
If the team is competent, they’ll notice there is a Sombra and be prepared for it.
Peel. On Junkertown they will have essentially years to set it up.
Peel. On Junkertown. Or Havana. Years to set it up.
And how do you propose, they do that on Junkertown?
Life Grip. Also Dive just… Isn’t really even a solution on even Junkertown because the majority of dive can’t cross that distance. Mirror is the only thing viable on Junkertown.
Which is why Junkertown is a Widow controlled map right? Why Ball meta still doesn’t stop Widows deciding it all the time in high elo?
That’s not counterplay, that’s avoidance. Also on maps like Junkertown, there aren’t flank routes for long sightlines.
You act like Junkertown doesn’t exist.
Yes and on those maps, she isn’t really as much of a problem, because the relevant and needed counterplay at least exists. Because there, even the best Widows can be beaten.
…That… Doesn’t really reflect reality? Because she can move, she can grapple, and you have to take so incredibly long a flank. She doesn’t play further up, and she can take spots with so easy a peel for her team that she just… Isn’t going to effectively be flanked? I get the point you’re going for, it’s good theory but it doesn’t translate well into high elo practice.
Especially since every hero but Sombra will be spotted trying for those flanks. And she simply doesn’t… Stack up well?
Yes, most do. The exceptions however are immense problems.
Yes this is a valid tradeoff to note, but it requires flanks to be relatively efficient, on maps like Junkertown, Havana and the like, the flanks take so much longer that you will notice absences and the like too early into their flanks. And even if you don’t spot them, the longer they take, the easier it is to nail down the specific flank they use.
Since he is easier to pickup. Requires less dumping into one of the three main skill areas. Less stressful. More fun.
Widow often isn’t going to be playing in places where she can just grapple to her team.
Regardless, if she does, it entirely depends on the game and comps. If they’re running any sort of dive or rush comp then yes, you can either go for Widow or play to peel for your team. If they’re running a brawly comp and she manages to rejoin her team then no, you can’t go for her, and your next move is entirely dependent on the enemy team.
But Winston gives you more options to force plays and force mistakes than a hero like Rein does into Widow. Genji and Tracer have far more advantages into her than Winston due to their higher burst. This is why discussing counters is meaningful for her.
I literally didn’t, “tends” was the operating word.
It’s 5v5 and Widow is a hero who gets the most value playing in different positions than her team wants to take. So unless she’s getting pocketed, she’s generally more divable than even heroes like Zen or Ana.
Depends where she is. If she is high ground you flank on the right and the rest is simple.
Winston alone cannot kill a pocketed Widow.
Genji does not need to dash to get to any flank point.
So wait literally 3-5 seconds for your dashes to come back? Flanking isnt about jumping in and committing straight away. Have a bit of patience.
Still the only way to deal with her on support.
It’s a way to deal with her. I never said she isn’t an issue, I said she’s easier to deal with than a good Hanzo.
Has no scope, meaning it is much easier to hit his projectiles on a flanker close range.
Already said, and I have done it myself. It’s not hard at all. If your idea of flanking is flying in the air so she can get a clean shot on you then that’s your issue.
So? He doesn’t die and neither does the Widow. The point is she cannot play Widow if you keep jumping her. It’s that simple. Sometimes you don’t need kills, you need pressure.
You’re arguing why you (a single person) should be able to win a 1v2 without them having the nerve to use their own abilities.
So because 1 person on the enemy team chose widow, Our entire team needs to play around that 1 person? That alone shows how broken widow is, she alone forces the entire team to play around her, no other hero does that.
If you can’t deal with her in any other way I suggested. Maybe read what I actually said.
If you can’t deal with an enemy Widow by playing a flanker or playing a mirror match then yes you should then try dive. There are lots of options, if you refuse to do any or you get outskilled after attempting every option then you deserve the loss anyway.
I’m not saying she’s healthy for the game, I’m saying she’s healthier than Hanzo.
Not much else can cross the gap with him and live, much less get out with him.
…This works very, very rarely in practice. You need the Widow to have an off-day in high elo.
No he doesn’t but those flank points are so far out that he won’t be able to engage off of them. He simply won’t outpace peel or headshots.
Yes, that waiting is a part of the problem. OW2 is a fast paced game and delays are a straight disadvantage. Patience is great and all but waiting is a clue for them. Also the plenty more was referring to getting into position to start that gambit.
…Not really a way to deal with her. You just don’t deal with her on support, or you die.
Maybe at lower ranks where spam outpaces insta-hitscan-oneshots.
Meaning it’s impossible to control space in the same way as Widow, means the enemy will have plenty of chances to engage, means you’ll be able to flank more intuitively, use all of your abilities easier, he has less of a positioning advantage, etc.
In high elo that just… They’ll notice the absent Echo, go huh, wonder where she is, or better yet have noticed the blue and white character wander off into the left side flank and go, “better move preemptively.”
Or just be ready with Life Grip, or set up res since Echo won’t survive back there to contest it. Etc.
If your idea of a good flank is preventable by just mild tracking, it’s not going to stand up in high elo as a consistently good strat. Which is what it needs to be.
No she’ll grapple away and go right back to it with a 4 seconds span of being in danger. Winston will jump out and be pursued and useless for the next 10-20 seconds. It is not at all equivalent, and the pressure is not even remotely worth it.
Widow is a one shot character. She can win any 1v2 without any need for abilities. There is no pocket method beyond Zarya bubble (and if you want to run Zarya on JT well. Your funeral), she is hitscan one shot. She does not need to engage to do this.
So yes. I am arguing that other characters should be able to kill Widow through a 1v2, since you know. Widow does that to everyone else.
Sorry but that nots true. It doesnt matter what rank the winston is, if i switch off of my main because they are causing trouble. Be damn sure he will either switch or just stop trying to dive. Because reaper tears him to pieces even through ult; just sit next to your supports and its an easy win, dont even need real tactics or thought to do it. A hitscan main playing reaper should easily get like 80% accuracy when playing into a winston, its so easy to track.
I love how people say Cover is how you counter Widow, Hitscan is how you counter Pharah, Stuns is how you counter Genji.
Cover counters everybody. Hitscan counters everybody. Stuns counter everybody. These are core game mechanics, not strategic choices.
did u suddenly forget that support utility is a thing? mercy literally has mobility on a two second cooldown, even if we ignored the support utility, she can literally get to her support in seconds, ana has nade+sleep, kiriko has tp+ suzu, bap has lamp and burst regen, etc. there is so much options for support to run away even if they get no heals, oh and also, are we suddenly forgetting that three other people exist on their team???
you are sorely mistaken if you think pressuring equates to a few seconds of stalling the widow, because widows down time is literally her LOS and her reloading, as soon as you TP away shes gonna start shooting again.
why does it take a full dive comp to counter TWO players, you are being unreasonable and unrealistic.
why do you have to play AN ENTIRE comp to counter ONE person out of FIVE other people, it would make sense that if they were playing a full poke comp therefore dive vs poke would be great, but that is not it, you are playing a full dive comp to counter ONE person.
ah yes, the person playing valorant in a MOBA shooter whos sitting so far in the backline the outline is literally a smudge on my screen is simply better than me, yep, i totally suck because i have no pathing options on the sniper map and every time i try to engage she has her trusty grappling hook.
are you really going to argue that a short ranged character like genji is going to do damage in mid to long range? is this the hill your willing to die on?
way to miss the ENTIRE POINT of my post lol
genji doesnt have the best mobility, that would go to tracer, ball and doomfist his mobility is good all around, jack of all trades master of none, and guess what, the three that i mentioned are the ONLY dive heroes that can follow up after grapple, and two of them are tanks but yeah, goodluck following up on grapple with no dash cooldown because thats what it took to get to the widow in the first place because there are literally zero pathing options in sniper maps.
echo is not silent, she never has been she never will be, she is very loud, and horrendously huge, a widow will spot her miles away.
go play genji or reaper and reach atleast GM 5 then come back to me
you have to be either trolling or actually the dumbest person i have ever talked to, like there is no possible way that your brain is not the size of a quark
who said that the flankers are even able to get to the widow in the first place, the problem with widow is that she doesnt even give you a chance to peek or get into her space, hanzo has a close to mid range effective range, if the enemy is aware of the hanzo then his mid range potential is slashed in half, and his long range potential is nearly zero to none, hanzo LETS you actually use map geometry to get closer to him, not widow, you can play genji into hanzo on circuit royal, not widow,
if you are playing hanzo and not taking highground and off angles then you are dumb, sitting in your backline will amount to you doing nothing except feeding damage so that the enemy support can get ult charge faster, what do you know about playing hanzo? if you are in a lobby where hanzos can sit in their teams backline and still get picks then you are actually bronze sorry to say. also, apperantly this problem suddenly gets solved if your playing zen because ive seen you say “just dive him bro” when zen also literally has a oneshot that is even easier to hit than hanzos arrows.
hanqz thinks that zen isnt broken and is perfectly balanced, dont bother arguing with him, his arguments are always full of fallacies and he will always get the last word in, arguing with idiots will only lead to them dragging you down to their level and beating you with experience
Glad to see people are finally starting to call Widow mains on their BS. There are far too many maps where it’s impossible to contest point without being in the middle of a sniper’s sightline, the “just use cover” argument doesn’t hold up in a lot of cases.