Winston will kill Brigitte before Brigitte kills winston.
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You’re forgetting about stun and passive heal?
Winston loses a 1v1 against Briggite every day.
I did not forget about the stun; in fact, I mentioned it right here
, and the passive heal would have to run for the full 4 seconds before it negates one second of Winstons DPS. So that’s 5 seconds instead, and still not including Winston’s Burst damage from landing on brigitte.
Winston does lose to Brig unfortunately, but that’s why I play Rein and Orisa to out-damage her and ruin her stun fun.
Edit: Rein- not so much, but he’s still viable when she’s in smacking distance and already-used up.
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I’m pretty sure Brigitte forces Genji switch now, and Tracer is pretty close.
But It’s not just these three (prior to Brigitte) that didn’t have hard counters that force the switch. McCree (subpar as he is), Sombra, Hanzo, Widow, Junkrat, Mei, etc don’t really have any “predator” that force them to switch. Neither do D.Va, Orisa, Reinhardt, Roadhog or Zarya.
These heroes are usually switched off because their abilities don’t compliment their team, rather than some hero on the enemy team completely shuts them down, as is the case of Brigitte vs Winston/Reaper.
You cannot forsake balancing Junkrat for a Brigitte counter. Junkrat got nerfed because apparently Blizzard believe he needed to be nerfed to balance. Keeping Junkrat overtuned to counter an overtuned Brigitte makes ZERO sense. Both should be properly balanced.
This is assuming old Junkrat would even force Brigitte to switch. (He couldn’t.)
“There aren’t many Pharah mains out there”? What? Just because people didn’t play Pharah as much in dive meta doesn’t mean those people are not good at her. Pharah isn’t about focusing a target but controlling an area. She’s highly map dependent to be able to “counter” any hero to begin with.
No, just because there is a Genji doesn’t mean Widow will be in living hell. Genji is favored at close range and Widow at long. It is a skill match up and playing Genji against Widow doesn’t force Widow to switch off.
He pairs beautifully with Brigitte if the enemy team doesn’t have a Brigitte.
I think the main problem is that some people think it’s okay to have dive heroes not viable even if it means making Brigitte imbalanced. Like I said having such hard counter to Winston Genji and Reaper is a problem since Brigitte has no such hard counter herself, and it isn’t because things are “scary and new.”
Please. Dive isn’t even used on majority of the ranked games. Playing a dive hero without going a dive comp; without actually executing it with good coordination and communication is as effective as playing a non-dive hero, which is to say, nothing “easy.”
I’m sorry but this is horrific math. You realize Brig has armor, self heals, and can stun every 5 secs. Any Brig who loses a 1v1 to Winston should uninstall immediately.
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The armour halves Winston’s damage. 60/2 = 30. Briggite does 16healing/s.
30-16=14. 60/14 = 4.28. A 1 second stun every 4 seconds - another second on to that. 4.28 + 1 = 5.28
It takes Winston over 5 seconds to get rid of Briggite’s first 50hp.
From then on Winston does 44dps. (60-16)
200/44 = 4.54 - which would be time for another 1 second stun.
4.54 + 1 = 5.54.
5.54 + 5.28 = 10.82.
It takes Winston 10.82 seconds to kill Briggite.
Briggite can kill Winston in 8 seconds.
10.82>8
So yes, Briggite does win a 1v1 vs. Winston.
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If Winston went into F tier by Brigitte, Mei is now in the Z-tier. There are other heros that has it way worse than Winston atm.
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It isn’t horrific math. Brigitte does about 58 DPS, Winston does 60.
If you land leap and melee, Brigitte’s armor is gone. Brigitte’s down to 180 health, no armor. Her combo takes into effect, starting her 16 HPS which will bring her to 196 while Winston is down at 350. Brigitte is stuck doing melee now doing about 58DPS, with Winston effectively doing 44 DPS. Brigitte isn’t going to get her armor back at this point, she’s going to die in 4.45 seconds (196 health/44DPS). Brigitte is doing 58 DPS to Winston’s 350 Health, ignoring his armor values. It’s going to take Brigitte 6 seconds to kill winston (350health/58DPS). Brig’s stun isn’t coming off cooldown until after she kills Winston, at which time Winston will have killed her. Whip Shot will come off cooldown again, but it will still take her almost 5 seconds to kill Winston
This is the math.
Brigitte’s heal is 16/second.
Zen cannot heal himself.
Assuming you’re specifically targeting the zen, and you’re suicidal, and Zen is afk and not going to ram his orbs up your hairy…ehem…you leap directly onto Zen.
That’s 45 damage.
Tesla cannon deals 60dps, meaning you kill zen in 3 seconds with 45 + 60 + 60 + 60 (225) damage.
However, Brigitte is there to stop you. So she hit you with her flail to start up her healing, and immediately stuns you (because your scenario details Winston getting away after 5 seconds).
Over 3 seconds, she heals zen for 16 + 16 + 16 (48) health.
225 - 48 = 177. ZEN IS ALIVE!
…so you keep holding down M1 and he dies a half second later, unless she hits her E…
Lets assume this Brigitte isn’t a total moron and hits E about a second into Winston’s attack (the heal animation means she doesn’t get any passive healing this second). That’s a zen that’s at about half health taking a 150 health heal. So he gets 95 points of healing, and 55 armor.
So Winston keeps pressing M1 (it’s all he can do, really).
One second in, Zen is at 200 health + 55 armor. Winston deals half damage against armor, so this second Zen drops from 255 to 225.
Two seconds in Winston obliterates the remaining 25 points of armor and deals another 10 points of damage. Zen is at 190 when Brigitte’s healing starts to kick in again (since she cannot heal someone who is over-capped on health)
Three, four, and five seconds in Winston deals 60 + 60 + 60 damage to zen. However, brigitte heals 16 + 16 + 16 health as well leaving Zen at 190 - 180 + 48 = 58 health.
Assuming he’s won’t die immediately if he doesn’t leap right this second, one more second + a quick melee kills the zen and Winston can leap away at leisure.
Now, if Zen turns around and orbs Winston to death, that’s a 2v1 scenario, and it means Winston gets a friend to help as well. But I don’t want to do that kind of modeling.
Winston is not invalidated by brigitte. She just makes his job a LOT harder, and a lot more dangerous.
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Look, this is not that complicated. If she invalidates ALL tanks then that’s a major issue, but if she is strong against some and weak against others then that’s design as intended.
Right now I would say…
Orisa strong against brig
Zarya strong
Rein medium
Hog weak
Winston weak
So I don’t see the problem. Learn to play Zarya.
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brig didnt make winston f tier, it doesnt work that way anyways, the meta made winston worse, since hes a pure dive tank and the meta is pretty anti dive so hes not gonna do good in it, that doesnt mean he needs to be buffed it just means the meta doesnt favor him
Not sure what your meaning here. Junkrat and D.Va don’t have melee skills.
I’ve never found it to be particularly good design if one hero completely negates another to the point where you are forced to switch.
On the point of Winston, if you are playing Tracer/Genji and the enemy team goes Winston, you are certainly going to have more of a challenge. However, you can still be smart and out play it. This is fine.
But if one hero shuts down another so dominantly that they aren’t playable competitively anymore that is a problem. It turns Overwatch into a game of rock, paper, scissors of people switching heroes back and forth over who is actually playing better. Not good.
…
I meant that Junkrat is immune to his own grenade damage and D.va is immune to her bomb.
Soldier and Pharah both take damage from their own explosives, while these 2 do not. This is done because Junkrat was terrible with self-damage and D.va would die to her own ult more often than the enemy would.
The point is that there can be exceptions to rules to balance them out. Just because it’s a melee doesn’t mean it cannot be changed so that it actually has some form of counter play (Besides “Just dodge it/Stay out of it’s range lul”).
The mere existence of a counter hero should never shut down anyone. They should have to work at forcing you to switch.
I’m not currently seeing any problems in this area. Even Genji requires both Brigitte and Moira, working together focusing him down, to force a switch.
The tanks? Winston? Brigitte does not have the necessary damage output to shut down a Winston. She needs the help of her team. She has the tools to blunt his dive and keep him in place, but she cannot kill him by herself. Not with every single tool at her disposal. He’ll be able to leap away before her stun comes off cooldown (not to mention you can always bait out a shield bash. Never, ever discount mind-games.)
Brigitte counters Winston, but it’s only a soft counter. She makes his job difficult. Not impossible. Her healing can’t keep up with his damage, and she can’t keep him from escaping by herself. She needs help to put him down.
The fact that Winston does his thing primarily in the opponents’ backline, where she’s very likely to get lots of help, is not Brigitte’s problem and very much no reason for her to be nerfed (and definitely not a reason for Winston to be buffed. Not after an entire year of top tier dominance)
I agree with most of what you said.
Now Winston is not completely useless against Brigitte, but your role/playstyle drastically changes.
before, you would dive onto the backline and disrupt the enemy team so that your team has an opening to get a pick.
Now, you’re pretty much a “contest the sniper” kinda pick.
Your role now is more single target focused instead of team focused.
Instead of disrupting the enemy by diving the supports/backline, you mainly want to try to contest those solo people in good positions (I.E That Soldier/Widow on high ground or the Ana that’s playing farther away from her team.). If you try diving into the backline like you used to, you will either straight up die or get very very low without accomplishing anything (which almost feeding at that point). It will take you too long to kill anything with Brigitte there (because of her 150 burst heal) and getting stunned will buy them even more time before you can do anything.
Going after those on high ground or that play farther away from the team is better because either the person on that positions gives it up and retreats to the team, or the team goes to them, drawing an opening just like before.
Now, the main issue that comes with this new play style is it heavily denied if they don’t run Widow/Soldier/Ana. Especially with New Hanzo. He is not going to be playing away from his team and has the burst damage to turn you into mince-meat. Or if they run a Junkrat or anyone besides the 3 I mentioned, and you don’t really have a point in going Winston.
In conclusion, I wouldn’t consider Winston “F-tier” but rather Situational in the current Meta. He doesn’t need any changes, and really no matter what you change about Brigitte she will affect Winston the same way. Even the one I want, not bashing through shields, only helps in a 1v1 sense, where he isn’t even that bad against Brigitte.
only 2 heroes i main are good in this meta lol
Only until his supports get better able to support him. The change to Ana should be a drastic improvement to Winston, just across the board. Since she’ll be able to more reliably shoot him from behind her line while he dives.
Additionally, as Zarya’s pick rate goes back up, so will Winston’s ability to survive ridiculous dives. Him randomly diving the enemy’s back line is also a potential goldmine for her high-charge state as a big, zappy monkey tends to draw a lot of fire.
On top of that, don’t forget that his Brigitte still has a 30 yard range with her burst heal, and on top of that Winston can benefit from her ult the same as anyone else. So your average Winston back-line dive should be going in with 675 to 750 health (depending on how Torb’s rework goes), with up to 250 of that being armor (100 brig ult, 75 brig pre-leap E, 75 torb armor pack).
The game is moving towards larger health pools and slower gameplay, but bigger plays depending on your comp. Personally, I think it’s a healthy move. TTKs were getting too short and gameplay was getting difficult to follow. Speed reduces tactical decision making and forces fast metas which increases the likelyhood of mirror matches.
When you slow things down, you allow for decision making to overcome the impact of mechanical reflex to a point, and you open up options. When 1/10th of a second kill time makes a huge difference, your options close as anyone who cannot make up that 1/10th of a second becomes instantly useless. However, if you start to be able to measure that difference in seconds, suddenly a whole bunch of options come back as minutia starts to become exactly that.
I don’t want fast paced mirror-matches. I can go watch CS go for that, AND get exciting knife kills to boot.
I want diversity, and it’s not going to happen with wall-to-wall sub-1 second TTKs.
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Didn’t Winston already have a hard counter with Reaper? Just no one really notices since Reaper hasn’t been a relative hero in a meta in forever.