Why do you people always assume there is an issue with rank? They are content with their rank, they just don’t like being jerked around by a janky matchmaker. It’s not about getting better or climbing, it’s about having consistent fair matches instead of stomp up and stomp down over and over. Unless you are the carry or the potato, you are just along for the stomp. That’s not fun. Being the carry or potato isn’t fun either. Why is it so hard to put players with similar skill in the same match on both sides? Unless that’s not what it’s actually attempting to do.
Yeah, it’s harder to manipulate and scam players with. That’s the reason.
That quite literally wasn’t a response to you or your original post. I was responding to MiguelRiveras assertion that the matchmaker gives certain teams in mystery hero more Bastions/Torbjorns to “rig” the game. I find it pretty funny though that you’ll chastise someone for maybe not reading your 3000 word essay while failing to read a two line response to somebody else.
Rank based competition will force you towards a 50% winrate. The reality of SR based matchmaking is that eventually you will plateau and be stuck in relatively even matches anyways. That’s why this “forced 50% winrate” thing is silly. That’s the end result or any matchmaking system that ranks you when you plateau. Whether its based on MMR or SR the end result will be the same.
Lol, no. It’s because the only person having fun in significantly uneven lobbies is the guy dunking on everyone else.
If it’s about getting consistent fair matches they wouldn’t complain about the winrate.
Ditto to what PainWarriorX said. If they cared about getting consistent fair matches they wouldn’t complain about the winrate.
Pardon me, I made a mistake. I have this knee-jerk reaction to claims of pareidolia, confirmation bias, Dunning-Kruger effect, and the other rhetorical cudgels that have been used against my own argument on this forum many times. These are cheap debate tactics, favored by pseudointellectual Ben-Shapiro types who like to make up their own facts and avoid substantive discussion.
Competitive play is ostensibly MMR-based, not SR-based.
That would be true of a rank-based matchmaking system. Not what we have.
This is a wild assumption, and I assure you it’s wrong.
imma put it out there this kind of obsessions’ of a subject is not healthy. I’m not saying your obsessed with overwatch or anything but its clear the damage done by the matchmaker lets overwatch and competitive matchmakers live in your head rent free. to call for political action about something like this is just a little out there when you consider there are way more important things to lobby politicians about.
you talk about living without overwatch and that’s great man that i applaud releasing yourself from negative cycles in your life. however coming here and writing pages and spending hours on making videos makes you seem like you really didn’t let go. it doesn’t sound like a plea to help others out of trap. it sounds like you cant let go very easily.
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You are right, and I do feel conflicted about my continued involvement on the forum of a game I no longer play. But I am connected to this issue for personal and professional reasons both. I have invested considerable time in my public information campaign at this point, and I don’t want it to come to nothing because then all the time I have spent will be in vain. Have I fallen prey to a sunken cost fallacy? It all depends on the outcome.
I know that I suffer for my continued involvement here, but I am compelled to go on. If you’d like to understand better why, please watch my video or read the original post in full. And if you really are interested in my work on other subjects, please check out the other videos on my YouTube channel.
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I have watch your video completely, honestly it’s pretty sound if you ask me. But im really only commenting not as an attack on you but to simply say i think you would be better not inviting the negativity of the forums onto yourself. the fact is there are many facets of matchmaking system that are extremely manipulative for a reason, to keep you involved. and those systems will only continue to grow as games as a service exist. you know this and i know this. anyone addicted to play video games at the end of the day has to overcome that themselves.
but if you do feel as you are running a campaign this isn’t how I would go about it. people don’t need pages of info or a scholarly essay. you push more people out then you would in just off that alone. so I guess what I’m saying is you would be better served saying “I quit overwatch because I didn’t like the matchmaker and mmr BS, here is how stopping playing has benefited me.” short sweet and actually engaging to a passer by. furthermore if overwatch did have a perfectly balanced competitive matchmaker, would your life be better off? It sounds like you are enjoying not spending time in game. if the matchmaker didn’t make you quit who knows maybe you’d still be wasting your time on this game instead of learning that kool slackline stuff! food for thought at the very least.
And really no hate, you seem to actually care about fair treatment of players and while i do find it a little over zealous it obviously comes from a good place!
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I don’t care that this thread was from like 4 years ago, because the stupid OP is still replying to it apparently, so here we go. This post has the greatest stupidity to effort ratio I’ve ever seen on these forums. It’s honestly mind-boggling.
Consumer fraud… because of… MMR…
I feel like I need to inform you of some pretty basic practices when it comes to essay writing. I know it’s important to have a hook, but when you immediately sound like an utter lunatic, a lot of people are going to stop reading what you’re writing. Unless of course, they wish to make fun of you brutally. On that note, let’s go through the rest of your post!
INVITATION REJECTED. If I wanted to watch a video, I’d go on Youtube.
I’m pretty sure most people are in fact both aware and consenting that they are fighting against each other in competitive. It is, in fact, the entire point of the mode.
I see you’ve failed to provide a link to these polls. I have no idea if this true, and no idea how “handicapping” was defined in these polls, but CERTAINLY an idea that a poll conducted on this forum is NOT representative of the greater overwatch-playing population.
So before I started writing this post I had to skip ahead to figure out what in god’s name this whole post was actually about, and when I finally figured out what you were talking about… let’s just say that this bullet point is so completely wrong I’m wondering if this entire post is a very elaborate troll. But we’ll get there.
I’m not sure if you’re aware, but this isn’t true above 3000 SR anymore.
Ok, this is the part where I begin to tear you apart.
So, your problem is that random chance under the current system may make games more unfair than they should be. I can kind of agree with that. Your proposed solution is to COMPLETELY REMOVE MMR, THUS MAXIMIZING THE AMOUNT OF RANDOMNESS IN EACH GAME. WHAT??? HUH??? BWAH???
I don’t understand how you can quote the dictionary definition of handicapping, then use it in a completely different context. If handicapping actually existed by that definition, better players would have less health, deal less damage, etc.
You think the MMR system is smart enough to identify people as being designated carriers or carriees? Jesus you’re delusional.
From… “this” thread? This is the first post in this thread, how do you know???
You should have kept to that!
I fully agree that Blizzard needs to talk, interact, and respond more with their playerbase, but maybe they didn’t feel like engaging with a lunatic.
Oh, you’re so smart! YOU should sue Blizzard, since you understand it so much better than any lawyer is capable of!
Please, send me a link to an actual Advertisement that even talks about Comp in any capacity, and tell me which claims are untrue.
Dude, just because the patent allows for it doesn’t mean that any of those things are actually in the matchmaker. In fact, except for skill level and waiting time, I don’t think any of those things are implemented.
That’s because, as I’ve described, what they do is not handicapping at all. I know I’ve made this point already, but I’m still astounded that you quoted the dictionary definition, used the definition in a completely different context to demonstrate that you understood it’s differences compared to what’s happening in OW, but STILL are insisting on this terminology.
Nowhere in the following text do they use the word “addictive” or any synonym of that, or anything that relates to whatever crap you’re trying to say. VERY impressed that you used the word usury, even if this has nothing to do with lending at unfairly high interest rates.
(Stop trying to use uncommon words to sound smart until you actually learn what those words mean!)
I’ve skipped ahead a bit, and this is where I’m delivering the killing blow to your stupid argument. This quoted section is the cream of the crop, the crux of why your entire post is not just wrong, but obviously wrong and insane.
Overwatch is a game.
Nobody but NOBODY wants the matchmaking system to do this “unicorn” game, because people want to PLAY THE GAME. If you think the goal of the matchmaking system should be to produce 1-sided stomps, then you’re crazy for whole new reasons. The goal of a matchmaker shouldn’t be to be “efficient”! If your main reason for going into competitive is to be “productive”, over having a fair match, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons!
There’s a couple more points I need to hit before I can finally never look at this thread again.
I got experience disparities all the time in QP, the hell are you on about? Of course it’s often similar, but random distributions are often random.
- You utterly failed to describe why the experienced players are “suffering” in this scenario that you made up.
- I’m not even sure what you mean by experienced or inexperienced. Is it just by level or play time? Again, I’m telling you that’s not even how Blizzard balances matches.
- Wasn’t this thread about MMR? Why are you suddenly whining about “experience”?
So what is your suggestion here, exactly? Funnel new players into their own version of Comp, and hurt queue times even more? Or are crying that you’re not allowed to stomp newbies? What does this have to do with MMR?
Pretty sure most vets know about MMR! You’re not special for knowing it exists!
No it doesn’t! Before Role Queue, you could easily have 6 DPS mains on one team and an even 2-2-2 split on the other! Trust me, it happened ALL THE TIME! This part is just a bald-faced lie!
If I were still bumping a post made in 2018, I might want to edit the parts that aren’t relevant anymore.
You keep using this phrase. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Or perhaps, as role queue has demonstrated, people just like playing DPS more than other roles? Why do you think people like playing the role that revolves around shooting people in this first person shooter?
Wait, who’s “us”? OMG, you can’t even get Gold? That’s so hilarious. You’re in the bottom 29 percentile and you’re making essays about how the game should be designed. I’m really starting to understand this thread more and more. It’s just another “I suck but can’t take responsibility for myself” thread, dressed up in fancy words that you only half understand!
Guaranteed statistically unlikely, huh?
You’re going to be the best player in your match, on average, once every 12 games. You’re as likely to be the worst player in your match. Based on clues provided, you will be significantly worse off without MMR.
OH GOD NOT AGAIN
No it doesn’t?
Let’s say somehow there’s a 2v2 game mode. The players have MMRs of 2000, 2200, 2200, and 2400. The 2000 and 2400 will be grouped together, as will the two 2200s. Very, very basic logic can be used to debunk your deranged claims.
Yes and yes? Ideally if you don’t know what you’re doing you shouldn’t be queueing for Comp, but how high do you want the level requirement to be? People gotta start somewhere. That doesn’t justify them getting stomped into the ground! That’ll kill the game faster than anything else Blizzard’s doing (or not doing)!
Why do you think players’ SR mobility is more important than fair matches? Blizz could just increase the amount of change after a match if that was so important.
Holy crap. Again, THIS IS A GAME. Nobody needs to play this game, and if the matches aren’t engaging, people aren’t going to! What is wrong with your brain?
Every time I think I’ve reached the bottom, you dig out new lows of stupidity.
SR is based on MMR. Where do you think this number comes from? Ever disconnect from a game, then win another game and notice that you got a LOT more points than normal? If you remove MMR, SR doesn’t even work anymore. I haven’t spent all this time responding to a troll, right? Man you really got me if that’s true.
/facepalm
You have got to be kidding me.
I guess I have little room to complain here actually, since I have ALSO quit overwatch, even if it was for reasons related to last summer’s scandals, and am waiting for either unionization or Kotick’s removal to come back. But holy crap dude, I think it’s time to let it go!
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Get help. Please, please get help. Even if you are completely successful, it will not have been worth it.
Did cutburt slam shatter in your in both of your recent sliver game.
Wait, so we DON’T have 50% win rates at our rank plateau?
I will just quote this from his other thread
Ooh, rational, huh? Yes, there’s nothing more “rational” than deciding that the matchmaker A) Wants one team to win over another, and B) Somehow understands that Bastion is really good on Mystery Heroes.
I’m at a 33% winrate I really need this systems help lol. Hopefully cuthbert is right and it will bring me back to 50%. Although after 50 games I’m still losing. 
I am referring to algorithmic handicapping in this passage, not players “fighting against each other.” This is the entire point of the thread, and you seem to have missed it. I literally cannot respond to all of this. You are falling down on the basics of the discussion:
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The Battlenet forum, Overwatch’s original player forum, has been scrubbed from the internet, which is no fault of mine.
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External web page links are not allowed on this forum, so I couldn’t link to the pages anyway.
Practically everyone is not, in fact, aware that their matches are being algorithmically handicapped. And there are also some players like you who seem to have no idea or curiosity about what that means.
Same as here.
The entire point of a poll is that it is based on a representative sample. Polls are not expected to include every player in the population of Overwatch.
You took the necessary first step, bravo. Sounds like your reading comprehension failed however.
Obviously Overwatch does not handicap players health, damage, etc. They don’t have to, they can handicap matches by the arrangement of teams, and controlling which players are allowed to be matched. That is the point of the issue.
Yes! It’s not a delusion, it is the explicit purpose of MMR, as stated by Lead Overwatch Designer Scott Mercer.
Lawyers misinterpret the subject matter they write about all the time. That is why they rely on peer review and editing by technical writers like me. Your confidence in them is adorable though. I’m sure Activision had their own team of idiot lawyers sign of on their abominable Matchmaker patent.
We need to agree on semantics, for this conversation to go anywhere. What do you mean by “more unfair?”
I am always fascinated to meet another person who understands the concepts of government regulation and policy. Do you realize we’re an endangered species?
Competitive Overwatch’s matchmaking is not based on rank. It is based on Match Making Rating.
That is exactly the reason. What are your thoughts on PBSR?
That is correct, but I think a lot of people get confused about whether the difficulty curve is caused by changes to Skill Rating or Match Making Rating. Which would you say it is?
The thing is, I don’t accept that videogames an inherently addictive and time wasting. I think games can be really valuable tools for entertainment, education, socialization and competition. But when videogame players don’t have any control or even knowledge of their terms of use, we find that the videogames are using us.
Does that make sense? I appreciate your concern for my wellbeing, which has been affected by my obsession on this issue no doubt. But I hope you can understand that I am obsessed for altruistic reasons as well as personal reasons.
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You guys keep seem to be missing the point. The point is that even if it was purely rank based instead of MMR you’ll trend to a 50% winrate anyways.
The point is, that isn’t normal. Statistically the worst players will lose a large majority of their matches, and the best players will win the majority of their matches. Overwatch matchmaking algorithm tries to keep both of these groups at 50% winrate.
How? By stacking teams in an effort to balance winrates. It doesn’t care if the match is 50/50 fair; most of the time it is not 50/50, and that is on purpose.
Why? To let the weak players win so they don’t quit. And to give the best players a challenge so they don’t quit. It’s the same as using a carrot to lead a donkey. Players are the donkeys and a 50% winrate is the carrot.
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That is normal. Good players eventually reach high ELOs where they cycle between winning/losing because they’re being matched with players of roughly the same skill.
Low ELO players reach this point sooner.
It’s ok. A donkey doesn’t know it’s a donkey. That’s why they are so easy to lead.
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