According to HOTSLogs (and just general knowledge/watching streams/etc), the Cleave build on Zeratul is too strong. Especially the ability to blink in, Q their team to half health, and wormhole out; the damage is just too risk free. It reminds me of Greymane’s old cocktail build but without the need to aim.
Zera’s got lots of AA talent build potential but why take the risk of needing to auto attack people when Cleave build is as powerful as it is?
Rending Cleave at 4 and Void Slash at 16 need some tweaks imo.
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Without shadow mending at 20 he would be a trash hero.
Tuning his cleave build is okay but bring the buffs elsewhere so that i can feel playing a hero before hitting level 16 and cleaving at least two heroes thanks.
Also W build with greymanr was worse because it came online at 7 and worgen burst is independant of any talent to rip someone a new one.
The numbers do not bear that out.
What makes it feel similar to me was that you used to be able to buff it at 1, 4, 7 and 16 and it was just performing too well and was the only build people used.
With the cleave build, at 16 a single Q that hits 2 people does a total of 1669 damage. The wormhole combo with W and autos is over 2800 damage if it hits 2 people. And Cleave is on such a short cooldown and such a low mana cost that his wave clear is nuts.
I would understand “braindead” or “too dominant build” but “too strong”? lol
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That’s partly why it’s too strong: it’s too easy to pull off. It’d be one thing if it were difficult, then you could at least argue there’s some skill involved. Pressing Q in the general vicinity of 2 heroes doesn’t take 200 IQ.
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Interesting. Such an OP and strong build that there is a Zerat with Q build in every game.
Oh waiiit…
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Could be worse you could play a hero who requires pressing right click from 6 yards away.
The Cleave build isn’t necessarily the problem but rather ever since his rework Cleave build is the only one which can actually take VP.
So the reason you draft Zeratul in the first place is for VP in most cases. This is why he’s above the rest of the stealth heroes in the game.
Before his rework W build was considered the best because you got some of (if not the best) ST burst in the game with Rewind and VP. You had everything you could wish for.
Sentenced to Death saw 2 nerfs bringing it’s damage down from 50% to 30% targeted at Pro Play. Later on in February of 2018 Singularity Spike and Cleave saw buffs but because Combo Slash (the passive in MotN) was nerfed alongside VP enjoying a mana cost reduction (for whatever reason) it meant Cleave build net full value.
The rework separated this entirely. By removing Shadow Assault they decided to incorporate the Rewind playstyle into a new heroic - Might of the Nerazim. The question that needs to be asked why on earth would you use this heroic in a serious environment if it competes against the very reason to draft him in the first place?
The problem here is that VP is too good to pass up on. Even though Cleave build is quite weak until level 16 it’s still played the most because of VP. AA and W build requires MotN because of Combo Slash or Rewind despite being better in the early and midgame from a damage perspective (aka Zeratul’s actual role).
Also do remember that before this rework Zeratul’s Cleave build was more or less a meme because it was completely pointless until 16 where as W build could still be threatening and then enjoyed a huge priority focus powerspike.
Long story short I would wager that if VP was reworked you’d see a huge shift in talent builds. As it stands Cleave is the only build that can take VP without crippling it’s own performance because it’s strengths lies in other talents rather than the heroic choice.
It’s just such a shame that Cleave build also happens to be the simplest to play and also lacks any real form of counterplay. Altho, if you’ve been reading any of the other Zeratul threads you’ve probably seen me rant on the glaring issue that is VP.
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The other main problem with Zeratul is that the Cleave Build also gives him all his solid waveclear talents. You can dual-soak two lanes and just bide your time until 16 when you become a powerhouse. There is no downside to picking it.
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The downside was getting your core destroyed before level 16 and 20 which is less of an issue now.
Cleave build is taken because it gives the most damage and sustain to use with VP true but it is untrue to say that if you nerf everything but VP he would still be a relevant hero.
Wrong: Buff the other builds, and give a slight nerf to cleave.
i want talent diversity
How am I ‘wrong’ when you’re saying the same thing I am?
it looks like you think the solution is to JUST nerf Q build, i’m saying they need to buff the other builds, and tbh if they just nerfed the lvl 20 spell damage healing Cleave would be fine