So? I’ve given you my arguments again and again. Without any interaction with heroes baseline on his trait he’ll always be a PvE hero at his core. Having to pick a talent just to have PvP is a very poor design choice especially in the context of the current game direction.
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That’s why I didn’t responded to your “arguement”, because it’s stupid. You can’t say a hero is “a PvE hero at his core” just because he have to do PvE to get maximum value out of his kit. In fact Nazeebo has more than Vile Infection and his trait. Spiders, Frogs, Mummy-wall are great abilitys for pvp and so are his heroics.
Based on your logic Azmodan is in a worse spot than Nazeebo, because his kit is even more pve-related than Nazeebo ever was. Azmodan has two baseline abilitys that get full value in PvE (W and D). Vikings before 13 is also pve-oriented, because teamfighting before Nordic Attack Squad is just wasted potencial.
You don’t have to play Nazeebo around Viles Infection, especially not after the recent buffs to Q and still people are obsessed with stacks. That’s why I hated Nazeebo players for so long. Maybe I am in the minority, but I like Humangoid as 20 talent option, the zoning potencial is massive.
Azmodan’s Demon Warriors and Lieutenant can damage heroes, slow them, and block skill shots. Sylvanas’s trait has bonus damage to heroes. Can Voodoo Ritual do anything to heroes outside of Blood Ritual and Vile Infection? And Azmodan’s Q quest stacks with heroes and even now he’s incentivized to stack it on heroes with Gluttony or Wrath. Nazeebo? Nope, you have to kill minions, which contradicts the quest of Q and E at 1.
Again I don’t see why you are so against Vile Infection and Blood Ritual takedown component be incorporated partially or fully into his base kit. That way he’d have a better power curve.
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His minions can only slow, if he picks Brutish Vanguard at 13, but honestly I see rarely people pick it. Most of the time people pick Cydeas’ Kiss. And yes they can block skillshots, but most of the time his minions aren’t threatening at all and my point still holds that the most value from his minions comes from pushing.
Wave clear is part of any game mode and he gets more mana and health for his stacks and that’s important for pvp. Isn’t it?
No it only contradicts him, if you exclude makro as game essential aspect of the game, otherwise I don’t see a contradiction. He also gains mana and health like KT getting mana for globes. Is KT’s mana addict also bad for pvp, because until he fulfils his quest it doesn’t give anything, but mana and he has to collect globes?
Because Nazeebo don’t have to be played around Vile Infection and on some games you can’t complete this quest anyway. Why would you add a quest to his baseline talent, which cannot be completed on some maps? It doesn’t make sense. Sure you can nerf it and adjust it, but I don’t see why it’s needed…
u only go for cydeas kiss if u go for lazor build and that one is rather niche or better said situational. we have so much cc to disrupt it that lazor build shouldnt see much play unless a team fails its draft.
i see most azmodans go with double warriors and the hp+slow upgrade but my rank isnt high enough to have a say how it is in pro play…which makes out about 5% of the community
The WAY they do balancing needs to be changed. They’re running on an old formula that constantly busts the recently changed hero.
What the developers should be careful with when buffing/changing heroes is to not put too much emphasis onto abilities that does high damage that are automated and or requires little to no player effort.
- Naze spiders is one of such abilities. Requires little effort and has automated dmg outside of Naze’s control.
- KT Living bomb requires little effort and the potential high dmg is automated out of kt’s control.
- Azmodan orb, requires no effort and can do high damage.
There isn’t alot of other heroes that have designs that have an “out of individual control” designs like these heroes
I’d say maybe Chromie falls alittle bit into it too, so if they decided to buff her the wrong way it’s very likely they’d bust her too.
The buffs/changes should always strive to first make the hero competitive and engaging. and then not to put too much power into abilities that are VERY easy to pull off.
I would love it if ALL heroes had the same philosophy.
More effort = more rewards.
More risk = more rewards.
NOT the reverse which is:
Less effort = more rewards
Less risk = more rewards.
I personally go double summons, but I usually go the unpopular talent, which boosts minion waves as well, because when I go demon build I go for push power. If I go pvp/q build I prefer lazer or slow indeed, but usually without double summons, because the cd is increased and I pick that demons have armor to be more resilient against spells.
Well my rank isn’t better too, but it doesn’t mean we can’t share our experience, do we? Just because we aren’t master or pro it doesn’t mean our opinion can’t be valid?
What’s wrong on that? They made unpopular heroes popular and I like it. Finally Nazeebo and Zagara had time to shine, even though they ended overtuned, but I don’t mind it.
Btw. it’s easier to balance overtuned stuff than the other way around, because people loves overtuned stuff and the devs get a lot of data, because heroes becomes more popular. What’s wrong with that?
Now I want op Butcher or Nova changes, they endured way too long!
i do agree with some parts of ur posts but ur statements about azmo, kt and naze made me lol
What part of it?
KT place a living bomb, right? We all know how it’s placed and We all know how easy it is to place, right?
KT is fine atm… i’m not saying he’s busted.
But let’s say his popularity shrunk together with his winrate and the developers decided to buff specifically living bomb to have a 100% increased blast radius and every target got a bomb on them too with the same 100% radius.
That’s a scenario of a buff gone wrong.
Just an example… to further elaborate on specifically how buffing can go wrong.
If we check heroesprofile for the last 5 patches (39k games) he has 46% winrate overall through all ranks. And in master/dia he has 49%. I am not sure, if he’s “fine”, but I would like to see some small buffs to boost his popularity a bit.
https://www.heroesprofile.com/Global/Hero/?timeframe_type=minor&timeframe=2.54.2.85894,2.54.2.85576,2.54.2.85551,2.54.1.85311,2.54.1.85267&game_type=sl
But ofc after other heroes, who would be more in need for changes like Nova, Valeera or The Butcher.
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Yea a little bit but that’s a tangent of the point i was making 
A visual example of Spooder’s damage:
https://imgur.com/yRAhfOJ
I think the Spiders only do a tad too much damage. It’s easy to show that pic as some kind of proof Spiders are OP as they did almost the same damage as the KT’s Pyro ULT.
The thing is, like the Pyro ULT healers exist in this game, ability damage mitigation is something many heroes also have access to, and mobile heroes can avoid the damage and if it’s someone like Tracer, she has a tiny Hitbox and access to blink and recall. It should also be noted that the KT’s Pyro ult is burst damage, where Naz is DOT.
Nazeebo is an assassin and I think it’s fitting he is able to do serious hero damage. I do think they are hitting a bit hard now and that both trait/wall and Toad builds are a bit underwhelming in comparison to Toads. If you want to make an argument that his PVE damage should be lowered if he retains his high hero damage, that’s not an unfair argument.
What I don’t want to see is Nazeebo get hit so hard with Nerfs like Zagara did and make him almost worthless again. Naz compared to other mages does have his clear weaknesses in that he’s immobile, lacks burst and can’t clear waves at anywhere near the speed of a Jaina or Tassadar and of course shouldn’t
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I want to point out, that his spooders did not deal as much damage as they could, because I died before they could. Their initial hit is 3,6 seconds before my death, while they last for 5 seconds. So they deal MORE damage than a Pyroblast.
They are ability with THE HIGHEST damage potential between levels 7 and 13. And they are in top 3 abilities with highest damage potential after level 16, where only they and Deathwing Q have low cooldown. The 3-rd ability is Junkart’s Q, with Spread Volley.
True, it is indeed a DOT, while Pyro is burst. And there are SOME heroes, who can avoid bigger part of the damage, or heal part of it up. But there are also some heroes, who can not do that.
And that is why I have suggested to reduce its damage potential, while increasing its reliability, so it will not hurt “regular” heroes as much, while it will hurt “irregular” heroes more than it does now. My suggestion is to make it more consistent, while also making it potentially less overpowered.
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The problem with Nazeebo aside from being clearly overtuned, is the ability o favorably trade against just about anyone, only made worse by the additional sustain and siege capability.
I’ve consistently started finishing vile infection where previously I struggled catching remaining ~50 stacks unless I had another player rotating with me. This just adds to overall success.
Spider talents 1 through 7 could use a flat 25-33% nerf to said mana and hp return and blood ritual could comfortably be cut in half from 2% to 1% because this talent is anyways mostly a pick either for ARAM or clownfest QM with high number of kills. It just adds to his versatility. There could at very least be a requirement in place for a hero target to die with an active stack of poison DOT on them to trigger a 5 stack reward.
Could be even increased to 7 if if were limited to damage from frogs, but in my opinion spiders are too spammable and they automatically change target from minions to nearby heroes.
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I agree with you that this is probably the right direction to go with Naz. Keep in mind Spiders unlike many other burst mage heroes, does very little in the way of AOE damage.
As a closet Nazbro fan, as I said to you, I think his spiders are hitting too hard and personally I’d like to see a version of Blood Ritual baseline, I would like them to keep Naz a bit more PVP focused. I’m just concerned with the small Dev team he will get a Zagara like nerf bat and then fall back into obscurity.
You posted this as I was replying to WereElf. I too have found I’m stacking much faster than before, Blood Ritual being a huge help in that regard. I’m not sure if I like the idea of Naz only getting the stacks if a hero dies with a DOT on them, it would make the talent less consistent. They could reduce the number of stacks it rewards if a hero doesn’t die to DOT?
As I said to Elf, you’re both right that the spiders are doing too much for him in both PVP and PVE, it’s my hope they slowly reduce his numbers rather than opting for one huge nerf.
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Anyways, if you aren’t convinced of how broken Nazeebo is, try playing Zeratul for a full evening. You might have a slight chance of 1v1ing him after you get spell shield assuming you catch him with ice block on cooldown. There is no possibility of brute forcing him if you encounter a semi capable player.
All he needs is to land a single jar and a few auto attacks on you, which is likely to happen if you are dumb enough to even attempt. Simply surround yourself with zombie wall to buy time and Zeratul’s movement pattern becomes incredibly predictable, enough so to guarantee a hit with ALT+Q since there will be no travel throw animation delay for your skillshot.
The dumbest mechanic is probably spider sustain through ice block. In combination with spider colony it is basically god mode. They have basically doubled the uptime and the base healing amount by 30% compared to his previous state. It is an absolute embarrassment that no red flags were raised during “internal” testing.
Currently I am at 2-13 on Zeratul. Compositions aren’t ideal but games are mostly decided on how competent, or incompetent Nazeebo players are. I’ve had the misfortune of playing 5 in a row with a guy who barely collected 100 stacks in 30 minute matches, other time the enemy player single handedly won every category of overall performance.
When playing these niche or undesirable characters, everything in the game feels mostly fine apart for this one hero. There isn’t a single counter pick you can make to make his life miserable, or even to make the player reconsider their choice in draft as suboptimal.
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Yeah, if he lands it against the most mobile hero (Maximus) in the game. But even if he hits Zera, he can also just blink out and don’t let himself hit too much and after that immdiatly teleport back with his ability set on 1.
That can have many other reasons like QM or bad draft choice. I wouldn’t pick Zera for Nazeebo specifically, but if the enemys have more squishy heroes. Nazeebo can also be pretty tanky due to his trait.
I would value Azmodan, Gazlowe, still above Nazeebo. But which heroes did you consider great vs Naz before his buffs? This heroes still works against him, because he is immobile and can be ganked, because he has no real escape.
i think he s pretty balanced atm maybe frogs need some changes…
pretty sure kt with q build can dish out way more dmg than spiders ever could at safer range, in a shorter time window and as aoe
oh well zag was hard nerfed because of whiners too (not saying she didnt deserve some but it was way too much for my taste)
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Remove the baseline movement slow component from Q and see how it goes. If it is not enough, nerf spider sustain to pre patch levels (something around 30%).
Wouldn’t really want to nerf lvl 16 spider colony when KT has pyromaniac for CDR and new Jaina can pretty much spam cone of cold like crazy against melees (try it in aram, see how broken it is). The general flaw with mages is downtime between casts and this makes them more fun to play.
Extra range from lvl 1 and blood ritual is very problematic in QM, because it allows for too much versatility. On their own they’re mostly fine, but in combination with his scaling it makes it really hard for the enemy to find ways through which to counter Nazeebo. Not entirely game breaking like the first two things, but it is definitely a concern.
The hero is no different to Blaze after they gave him incinerator gauntlets + crossfire baseline (before the nerf). Very mana efficient, a lot of self healing and enjoys a relatively safe playstyle. Able to perform multiple roles at once.