Will varian get a rework at some point?

General Discussion
1

He’s in a decent spot but there are honestly some things that would benefit from some tweaking. For instance:

  1. Talent diversity
    As far as possible, varian should be able to have talent diversity and choice, regardless of what path he chooses to go (whether taunt, twinblades or smash). Currently I don’t feel like that’s the case.

For example, if you take twinblades, second wind is BY FAR the best level 7 option because the fast attack speed really synergises with the 1% hp per hit. Also, I can’t imagine anyone playing twinblades without taking high king’s quest. On the other hand, talents like overpower (if parry blocks attack, reset heroic strike) synergises heavily with taunt but is unpickable with twinblades (since twinblades resets heroic strike every second)

In other words, depending on the path you choose (twinblades, smash or taunt), you lose a lot of flexibility and choice in the other talents because some talents are clearly for certain build paths and other talents are clearly for others. It would be nice if varian had choice in his other tiers too (especially levels 1 and 7) independent of his choice of specialisation (whether taunt, twin or smash).

I’m not sure if it would be feasible for varian to have different talents depending on the spec he chooses? E.g. taunt varian would have different talent choices from twinblades or smash. That would be a lot of work for the dev team though.

  1. Garbage late game damage.
    Varian is a hero that relies heavily on auto attacks to do damage for 2 of the specs (twin and smash). However, varian has no talents that increase his auto attack damage besides high king’s quest and his level 4 talents.

In the past, it was fair for varian to have bad late game damage scaling because varian had one of the strongest midgame power spikes (upon completion of high king’s quest at 8-10 minute mark). However, high king’s quest recently got a sizeable nerf which not only evened out this midgame power spike but pretty much gutted varian’s late game damage.

Varian’s level 20 talents also don’t help much. Colossus smash should give a little more burst at 20 (more damage), not just a cd reduction since at that point in the game, many heroes unlock a ton of defensive options while colossus smash damage stays the same from level 4 to level 20 (many tanks/bruisers triple their survivability from level 4 to level 20 through talents while varian’s burst damage stays the same). Varian picking colossus smash was always about picking burst damage (twinblades is more sustained damage). However, varian’s burst damage drops drastically from level 4 to level 20 until it becomes a pitiful amount of damage that can be casted more often (due to the level 20 upgrade that reduces cooldown), turning colossus smash into some kind of weird sustained damage hero with crappy burst. From an identity point of view, colossus smash needs to at least keep its burst on par with the scaling of other heroes instead of transforming from a burst spec to a sustained damage spec.

The twinblades upgrade is also probably one of the worst level 20 talents in the game since it only gives half of the 15% attack speed (due to varian base attack speed) and almost every other bruiser in the game have attack speed talents that give more attack speed at an earlier level.

  1. Identity crisis
    Varian has been relabelled from multiclass to bruiser. I’m not sure if this means that he should embrace his new role as a bruiser and no longer have melee assassin levels of damage (since he was previously a tank/melee assassin).

However, I think most varian players (including myself) would want varian to keep his identity as a hero with different specialisations. In other words, I feel that varian should keep his unique identity of being multiclass and be able to spec into either a tank build or heavy damage build, EVEN THOUGH his class label has changed.

I would hate if they homogenised everything and just made varian another generic bruiser who auto attacks with low damage output regardless of spec path (which is similar to just about every other bruiser out there, e.g. artanis, sonya, imperius etc)

2

How would you change the talents so that the other level 7 talents are good talent choices at level 7? You can’t make every talent a good choice for every build Taunt, Twin Blades, and Smash.

So I don’t want Twin Blades with higher damage and Smash has a pretty good basic attack damage increase already. Late game, Smash could give Varian 400+ damage per attack. That’s pretty good in my eyes with his 20 armor reduction.

Its not just cd reduction. It also makes the Smash an AOE ability. Meaning you can reduce the armor of all enemies in an area. That is a pretty good level 20 talent along with the cd reduction.

The problem with him being a multiclass is the matchmaking. Even now, he gets matched as a tank even though he’s just a bruiser and is a skeptical tank. Some say he tanks really well (I do) and some say he is a horrible tank. When he is forced to be a tank in QM, it can be annoying for people who want to play Twin Blades or Smash Varian. It can also be annoying when Varian’s choose Twin Blades or Smash when they need a beefier tank or when the team needs damage and they choose Taunt. That’s the problem with Varian. The matchmaking can almost force Varian to be played one way or another and denies the player the ability to choose what build he/she wants to play based on the composition. In most situations of course.

I will say this, there are better tanks than him that can do more for a team. Varian requires a lot of follow up to be effective and that can make him be an inefficient tank in some situations. The only thing they need to fix with Varian is how he is matched, and making his Taunt build not so reliant on follow up. His slows are decent CC options, his protected by the way is good for his health, his actual Taunt ability is great CC but it needs followup in most situations. He has a decent, unsophisticated, but decent health pool and some great self sustain options as well. Can his tank build be improved? Yes, but it isn’t bad.

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3

I think Varian could use a bit of tuning to some of his talents. Aside from that, he seems fine as is. Not every possible talent combination has to be viable. He may lack damage late game but he makes up for it with two superb talents, Glory to the Alliance and Demoralising Shout. I’ve always seen him as a Bruiser so no need for changes there, I think.

4

Most of Varian talent are competetive with the exeption of level 7 and 20.

I think rebalancing his sustain (and sustain talents) would be all he really needs.

Maybe small buff to taunt like increased slow on Q.

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5

I’ve had a Varian Review + Rework floating around in various stages of completion for something like a year. I’ll be posting it soon-ish (see also: when I get TL3 back).

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6

I like the sound of that.
For the Alliance :muscle:

7

Honestly idk what would happen to me if I lose it forever lol.

8

You can, actually. It’s really tricky, but you can definitely do it.

It’s such a huge pain. I wish there was some sort of exception system, or credit for time spent playing the game, or something. Endlessly scrolling through high-post threads and then having to wait an arbitrary amount of days isn’t encouraging.

2 Likes
9

I agree… Tie it to account level 100, 200 or something. Along with a forum account age of 1, 2, 3 months etc.
Spending days scrolling posts is an asinine requirement.

Should be even less for community wikis.

10

Twin Blades synergizes with Second Wind because of the attack speed increase. I don’t see how Twin Blades, an AA build, would synergize with Lion’s Maw at level 1 and Lionheart at level 7. The slow would surely help you catch up and continue AAing the enemy slowed by your Q but you don’t receive as much healing from it as you do with AA’s. It would be better to pick those two talents with Taunt or Smash. Second Wind could also synergize with Smash because the damage increase would increasing the healing you receive.

That’s perfectly fine in my opinion. Not every talent needs to work with every other talent. That would mean you can just pick any talent at every level and you’d be fine. I don’t like that. He has diversity already and what the OP wants might just screw up Varian IMO.

11

“Can” is in reference to being able to make a design like that. I’m not saying that Varian’s current talent choices are that way.

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12

I know. I’m saying that the way they work currently is fine. You don’t need to make Lion’s Maw and Lionheart work well with Twin Blades because Twin Blades is AA focused, not spell focused. With Twin Blades, AA heals>spell heals.

I understand you can do it, I just don’t think anyone should.

13

Hard disagree. It may be functional, but from a design perspective Varian is an absolute mess.

Unfortunately, since I’m already in the process of writing up a massive in-depth effortpost about it, I’m not really that eager to get into the details of why I feel that way right now. However, if you’re interested, I can drop you a link to the thread in question when it’s done.

2 Likes
14

Please do.

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15

it’s alive!!!

16

Varian has a flawed design by it’s very nature, it’s why we haven’t seen another hero like him and why we probably won’t ever again.

You can’t have a hero that has 3 different core playstyles and also give him a talent tree with lots of options for each playstyle in it, that just doesn’t work unless you wanted to give him 6-8 talents per tier which would be a nightmare to balance and is against HoTS’ gameplay design as it is.

Considering how flawed his base design is, I think it’s incredible that he works as well as he does right now, all 3 of his builds work and work well just are better in different situations. Not every hero has that kind of versatility.

18

The only talent you should never pick is the lvl 7 Lionheart which increases your heals from your Qs. That needs changes but that’s it.

And did you know that if you want to go E build Ragnaros, missing out an E talent is really hurts his build?
Or not picking Lifeblosdom for Q Alex.
Or if you went E build Alarak and you didn’t pick the double E on lvl16.

Heroes having defind builds are not a bad thing.
There will be always a best option on every tier to every specific build.

This is not something you should complain about and it’s not a reason for a rework.

I didn’t experience this.

Colossus Smash is either about you weakining the frontline do your allies can blow them up, or you popping out a backline squishy. Both can be done even beyond lvl 20.

That lvl 20 also gives him more movespeed.
So he can stick to his targets with more ease (eslecially since he has 2 slowing basic abilities).
Increasing AA speed also gives more dps which means more dmg.
And since his sustain is from AAs, he gets a boost to his survivability as well.
That talent is good.

Varian’s identity is being The WoW Warrior.
He’s still that.
Just because he “lost” his multiclass title (yea, he lost only the title and not the kit which supported that title) that doesn’t mean he’s not a “multiclass” anymore.
He can be a:

  • Tank
  • sustain Bruiser
  • burst Bruiser

He can be a sololaner or part of the 3+men.
Varian is the dude you can pick in high ranked SL and the enemy just can’t really counter you because there’s 3 kind of you [Varian]. That’s his identity.

He does already.

Do you even bruiser, bro? :thinking: