Why are there so many nonsupport heroes with really good self sustain? Especially recently with, Orphea, Malganis, Mephisto (he gets armor, and healing/shielding through talents) , Yrel, and Fenix. They nerfed healers but started giving every hero some way to heal themselves.
EDIT - Its not that that self sustain is a new thing, it just seems like self sustain is a lot stronger now and as a result support feels less important.
Because new hero need to be op, and multitool so the people who bought them, feel powerfull and happy doing everything better than older heroes. I realy think if chen would be out like a new hero next Week he would be very op, and nice, because this is show that work now.
Didnât almost every Hero had selfsustain?
Valla, Muradin, Tyrael, Anubâarak, Zeratul.
It was a surprise when Greymane came out without selfsustain. It was already kinda odd.
I like self sustain heroes because it makes committing to a team fight more rewarding while also helping your healer breathe a bit. Iâve seen plenty of self sustain heroes disengage when they shouldnât have and died because of it. ![:stuck_out_tongue:](https://d3rakab8gpdsa3.cloudfront.net/en/heroes/images/emoji/twitter/stuck_out_tongue.png?v=6" ":stuck_out_tongue:")
This can, of course, be countered by heroes that dampen healing effects like Varian and Ana so I donât see what the fuss is about.
So warriors arenât expected to be able to heal themselves now?
Most the heroes have sustain, always have. They went through a recent phase where âNo sustainâ was the popular weakness for all classes, but phases end and they are just returning to normal.
I guess my point is more that there are a lot of heroes that have really strong self sustain now, even older heroes have gotten buffs such as the Kerrigan rework dramatically increasing shield generation. It just seems like the dedicated healer role is being marginalized in favor of heroes becoming very self reliant.
There is a reason that solo support Abathur is viable and itâs because there are a lot of heroes that have strong self sustain and just donât need a good healer anymore. I would just much rather see supports get some of their strength back than every hero being able to heal themselves.
Tanks and Bruisers should have self-sustain.
I donât know if itâs really the new thing, but weâve had previous non-Warrior/Bruiser/Support Heroes that didnât have base-sustain:
Mephisto
Maiev
Junkrat
KelâThuzad
I donât think Orpheaâs baseline self-sustain will be much of an issue. She can only sustain off of Heroes, similar to Alarak. Laning does her nothing, unless talented.
/shrug - weâll see what happens.
I donât think selfsustain is a thing only new heroes haveâŚ
Selfsustain of the original 22 heroes:
Falstad (shield, lifesteal AA)
Stitches (E)
ETC (E)
Tass (shield, I think it had 100% uptime)
Arthas (Q,R)
Mura (trait)
Aba (he doesnât need his heal but he can heal)
Tyrande (Q)
Valla (lifesteal, did she have healing Q back then?)
Sonya (E, lifesteal AA)
Tyrael (shield, lifesteal AA)
Kerri (shields, healing Q were a thing I think?)
Malf (Q)
Naz (stack healing)
Hammer (Lifesteal AA)
Uther (Q,W)
Raynor (E, lifesteal AA)
Illidan (trait)
Zera (lifesteal AA)
Diablo (dunno, was globethingy talent implemented yet?)
Without:
Nova ( I think, maybe she had lifesteal AA back then?)
Gaz
Nothing new, most heroes (20/22) had some way of self sustain. Not to mention that Fountains are basically a mechanic so every hero has self sustain baseline.
Maybe some things are wrong, Alpha was a long time ago and I donât think I remember 100% which talents were used alpha release. I Canât find the old talent treeâs either, but that shouldnât matter tbh.
Should say enough nonetheless, so I rest my case.
Its not that that self sustain is a new thing, it just seems like self sustain is a lot stronger now and as a result support feels less important is i guess the point im trying to make. A lot of older hereos had self sustain but it was slower and a greater benefit outside of combat, with only a few heroes having really good in combat healing.
Itâs really not. In general, lifesteal used to basically be standard for all characters. With mana being the limiting factor forcing people back to base.
Theyâve never designed the game around requiring a healbot, to the point where when they introduced the first true healbot support (Morales) she languished at the bottom of the winrate and pickrate for awhile simply because she was redundant. Itâs also why the class is called âSupportâ rather than âHealerâ. You know, up until they do the class change.
Even now itâs mostly only the tanks/bruisers getting any real sustain.
Of the last 10 (nonsupport) heroes:
MalâGanis: Baseline lifesteal, bats
Mephisto: Talent Q lifesteal
Yrel: Q, talent
Fenix: Enhanced regen If shield(out of battle), talent AA lifesteal
Maiv: Nada
Blaze: Self burning
Hanson: Nada
Junkrat: Nada
KelâThuzard: Side effect of Talent but lost if used
Garrosh: base skill
So that 7/10 have any sustain. Compared to the 20/22 on launch. And even then itâs primarily combat sustain. I suppose Orphea would put it as 8/11, but thatâs still a lower ratio than normal for the game.
Itâs not new in the game. Want me to list out some old, non support heroes with self sustain? Yes? Ok, here are some:
Stitches
Zeratul
ETC
Hammer
Sonya
Tyrael
Muradin
Illidan
Arthas
Thrall
Leoric
Butcher
Next time, I would recommend you to do your homework and actually understand the majority of the roster. Before making such ridiculous and false claim.
If you had read the full postâŚ
also this
Self sustain, in other words, is the the âborrowed timeâ you cling on until back up arrive. It alone will not save you the entire game. Also, healing isnât the same as supporting. It has never been a game about which team can pump out more heal. Thatâs narrow minded and boring.
I guess you have never seen a great Medivh played the entire opposing team like fools with good portal placement and timely use of shielding to save their allies. Or a Brightwing which polymorph an enemy hero that is one hit away from finishing off the hero they are chasing.
If youâre complaining about Orphea, to me it seems she has to work hard for her sustain.
I know that support =/= healing but to imply dedicated healing isnât an important component of a team is pretty wrong. The point Iâm making (and obviously didnât come across in the first post) is that, because of nerfs to healers and the fact that self sustain is so prevalent and strong in this game in general, the dedicated healer roll feels less satisfying to play.
It still feels like that healing roll is needed but the numbers they actually put out only feel slightly higher than what a lot of characters can do by themselves. It just makes playing a healer less satisfying, especially compared to where this game started. One of the things that drew me to keep playing this game was the fact it had very strong healing abilities.
This isnât about I think Orphea is overpowered or any hero is overpowered for that matter, more that I would prefer dedicated healers to be stronger rather than most characters having strong self sustain.
Problem is, some dedicated healers have relatively low heal and high utility. Having self sustain heroes helps balance that. Besides, requiring a healer at all times feels needy. Sometimes you just wanna go out there and kick some butt without somebody holding your hand.
Cause sometimes, your healer canât heal you at the moment, either accidentally, or absent-mindedly, sometimes you gotta take healing into your own hands. Would you rather have all 4 other teammates rely on the healer/hearthing/fountains, and if none of those are available then a hero should not engage even a single enemy otherwise they could lose potentially half or even all of their non-recoverable HP. Or if the whole team is fighting, only certain AoE heroes could hold a team at livable levels, while if the enemy doesnât have one of those AoE healers, then their at a crippling disadvantage and should never engage.
On the contrary, supports make self-healing heroes better, because they have that fallback source of healing. Itâs the tradeoff they make instead of raw damage output or CC like a god.
Thatâs hilarious, considering muradin has the best HP sustain in the game, literally wait and Iâm at full 6k HP now.
Raw damage output
Probably that we donât have that many heroes that stop healing effectâs thereâs a good 9 of them, but support is so mainstream it would be like a catchall counter to supports if there were more anti-healers in the game.
How dare you live! Iâm an assassin! healing is cheating!!!
And then they toned it down. Leoric and morales had healing reductions actually, not every single hero they touch gets more self healing.
Heroes being able to do things themselves without a healer to wipe their bums is important, how much on what type of hero is an important consideration.
Abathur is a viable spot healer that can easily and efficiently heal people in multiple lanes. If you had say, a morales rotato to heal people that were taking small portions of damage in lane, it would actually be slower than abathur simply giving them a hat and healing them for the poke they took, thatâs why his healing is powerful, even on heroes with no sustain like greymane whom can kite and poke down and clear minions well enough.
Thatâs what we had during the double support meta, but the thing is the main 3 healers that carried that meta, morales, uther and auriel are the only ones left who were not brought up after the support blanket nerf. So mostly, unless youâre playing those 3, supports are fine.