Depends which games you think about. Games like Monster Hunter and Yu-Gi-Oh have a fine AI that can challange you just fine. Just depends how much sad company want to to spend to make it good. AI is only as good as the Engineres that makes them.
More like you are foolish for accepting the status quo…
HOTS AI was about 10 times better up to some point in 2018 or something like that (can’t remember) when they hired a biology major intern and put him in charge of reworking the AI… which he successfully broke beyond repair.
AI can be amazin in games if people put some effort into it. Google’s Deep Mind folks did an AI for StarCraft II (I think it was called AlphaStar) like 4 years ago which rekt SC2 pros (it was like 10-1 in favor of AI). There are videos of those on YouTube and probably in Twitch archives somewhere as well.
So it can have similar skills levels with players
You’re talking about the blog of Kevin Gu. He started working for blizzard in 2011, and was on the AI team when you thought it was “10 times better” – that was him who did that, and it’s part of why he was descriptive in talking about particular faults and goals of the AI. However, he was transferred away from HotS and then left blizzard altogether to do AI for Amazon.
Yea, it’s easy to mindless fault something to suit some magical story you made up: “oh they hired an intern to do AI instead of having an interview to spotlight a senior designer”
The irony of talking about status quo, but still chirping the same ol’ tune…
I hate this change. It also means that for the player who pings the AI if that player dies in battle, the AI then immediately tries to hearth and usually dies in the process.
“Intern” is just referring to his abilities and the quality of his work just because he played games (being a tester) at blizz since 2011 doesn’t mean he has any “senior” qualifications as the AI guy.
You can look yourself at his timeline or the blog.
Feb 2017 - Feb 20181 year 1 month
Primary designer who scripted A.I. for all heroes.
He was the one behind the “AI rework” and it’s his “rework” that is the pathetic state of HOTS AI today. And yeah, instead of finding someone with decent AI experience they gave that job to a guy who was terrible at it. Whether they hired him from the street or transferred from other duties is pretty irrelevant. We all see the result and we (well those who have a clue) know what it could have been if someone cared.
It’s simply the reality. AI players will never be as good as Real players. It’s not like this is a HOTS thing either. The same goes for stuff like fighting games over the years.
You never, EVER get better from smacking around the AI.
They did that to prevent the bot from becomming free exp for enemy team since it just plays by itself. And free xp is not something you want to give your opponent when you are already behind in lvls.
Yeah that’s probably the only benefit I see.
But what happens when your Xul or Malthael leaves? Now you can’t double soak lanes because the AI isn’t programmed to know how to do that. Its beneficial in some cases because if your Valla leaves, tank can just ping them and they’ll be useful. When your laner or tank leaves… its harder to work with. Laner won’t be able to lane without a buddy, and the tank won’t engage as well as a human.
Those are my gripes about the new AI system.
If the AI cant be made better then adding surrender mode would be the only option. But the surrender can only be voted if conditions are meet
I agree. In its current state, I feel like leavers sabotage the team more than they think. If the AI were good enough to actually replace a real person then leavers wouldn’t really matter.
I think someone addressed that if the AI was too good, then people would bully others to try to get them to leave. They could combat this by having the AI be smart enough to play at the skill of the player that left, that way leavers don’t leave their team with a useless AI, but also don’t get replaced by an AI that would be more desirable than the actual person.
If that’s even possible, idk, but if the AI was like that, leaver’s wouldn’t be an issue. They should still be punished, but at least the team won’t suffer as much, if at all.
If people think the game is waste of time then they will leave no matter that. I admit myself I have left games too that was a waste of time.
Queing up as tank/healer and then get people on my team that just ARAM mid for whole 5 min before they wake up and see top/bot lane is already gone and we down two lvls already. Just the feeling that you cant do anything as tank/healer in this game if you play solo and get those kind of players.
You ping your dmg dealers to wake up and defend lanes or take camps they will just ignore it and when you do it yourself you have a troll that will spam ping you for not helping him cause he ran around alone and died in some random corner.
Wasting my time as tank/healer in those games is why I last month finally decided to quit the game and uninstall it. There are just too many games like those for me to care spending more time in it. Queing up solo as tank/healer wil just leave you frustrated cause you sit and hope your 3 dmg dealers are not trolls or people that quits fast and afk in base with no reason.
Also reason why I see so many premade now before I uninstalled. They all found out game is 10x better in a team then playing solo with all the trolls and afk players you get these days.
Then you might ask me why I dont premade myself ? Firstly all of my bnet friends and real life friends quit the game. Harb that I used to play with quitted it aswell so that leaves me to play solo or premade with randoms that sometimes can be dumb aswell.
It pains me to leave a game that was my fav for 7 years but it had to be done when the game gets more and more troll infected.
Too many people that has no basis knowledge of how this game works or just dont want to learn. People with 3-5k games on one hero that play very bad.
Healers and tanks that get spam pinged by trolls. Meanwhile the same troll can feed 10+ times and no one says anything about that.
4 stack troll premades that gang up on solo players and report him if he dont feed with them.
Players that die 5 times within 3 min.
Players that que up with heroes that can take camps with ease but never do it cause useless stats padding is more inportant.
Playing games where you are the only one with a working brain. Got alot more examples but this is just the tip of the iceberg of why I quit this game.
I have no interrest in playing a game like that.
Again, AlphaStar AI beating SC2 GMs (pros) 10 games to 1. Yeah, never…
it’s actually really relevant as you complaint is on the basis of you liking something, and not on the actual work, qualifications, or other context involved. You’re looping a rant to be ignorant in favor of just complaining. You’re banking off the conclusion that it is an ‘intern’ that “doesn’t care” which is an overgeneralized rant that tries to make itself sound better than it really is.
Guy was moved off the team; in case you haven’t noticed a lot of incomplete stuff lingers with this game on an effectual passion project by people that cared, but surprise-surprise, other things get in the way. For someone caught up on expecting people to care, it’s odd how much you don’t.
Chess engines outclass the best chess players in the world. Top players might get to about 3000 rating, while ai are estimated at 5000. The norm for top players is to train against a.i.
A nice middle ground for ai vs human games are turn-based ones where reaction speeds do not give an inherent advantage. In fighting games and rts, the ai’s reactions can break the game and certain handicaps are imposed to either reduce the advantage or compensate for some other issue. For many games, ai systems get information advantages over the player – reading inputs, bypassing fog-of-war – because they don’t ‘see’ like we do.
a sufficiently developed ai will dominate the majority of players, but, select constraints can make it possible for players to offset ai with behavioral exploits. Alphastar won against pros, but also lost to certain cheesestrats.
It’s not that ai will ‘never’ beat players, its that they can have so many advantages, it becomes unfair, unfun to play.
It would have been good if they gave your team more options: keep the AI in base, ping tie it to your hero or let it roam free. As you say, the AI for some heroes functioned better than others and if I remember correctly, Samuro AI would go out and soak reasonably safely.
You haven’t had to suffer the US server which is far worse! It makes me very sad to read you’re leaving Froggy, but I can relate. I’m playing so few games as so often players just sit mid lane and brawl, they have ARAM for that, but nope, level 3000 accounts who don’t even understand the most basic of rotations.
If you could politely ask these people “Please would you rotate lanes and go top?” or whatever, but most of the time people will type “reported” or do nothing but continue to stay mid and feed. I’ve even had Plat games like that in ranked, something that I can’t recall ever happening unless players were deliberately trolling. My feeling is the average skill of the player-base has declined.
This would include me as I admit I have lost some patience for players who really should be playing VS AI or ARAM. I wish you happy journeys ahead Froggy, I regret we never played some matches together.
I’m not leaving the forum just yet tho. Just the game.
I would like to give a little “insight” as a CS. AI isn’t my speciality, but I did have a course in uni and there are a few common misunderstandings:
“AI” in videogames is never actual artificial intelligence, because that would be so resource-intesnive to run as to be stupid to even try.
What’s actually done is use AI with data from actual games (or simulated matches) to “train” a bot, basically a desition tree most of the time, and then run that pre-trained bot in the game.
“Implementing machine learning” in a game just wouldn’t work, or at least not as many people think.
The Alphastar thing was overhyped by the media reporting it, just like most news (especially science news) are overhyped
anyone remember how “CERN discovered a faster-than-light particle”?
of course, in reality it was obviously just a calibration error in some tools, and the actual scientists at CERN said “we don’t actually think we found a FTL particle, we’re investigating what went wrong”
The Alphastar bot won 10 to 1 against some of the best players out there, yes. But it could only play in that one specific map, and it needed some “advantages” to even function, such as beeng able to see the entire map “on screen”, as oposed to only having full information on a tiny section, and relying on the much more limited mini-map for the rest. (also, it could only play one race IIRC)
- Related to the previous post and to this:
It’s true that “computer reaction times” are a factor, and they have to be limited to tune the difficulty (that was actually mentioned in one of the AI blogs back in the day; I think it wasn’t the same as the much-maligned “biology major” one).
But the more relevant difference between something like chess and something like HotS is the size of the “configuration space”.
Simply put, in chess there are a very limited number of pieces and a limited number of spaces those pieces can be in, while the combinations of those pieces and locations can make for an enormous configuration space, it’s still peanuts compared to an RTS or a MOBA.
The AI would need to learn how to play at every map, with and against every hero, and each of those combinations implies huge ammounts of training time.
Activision-Blizzard-King might have a lot of money, but they don’t have “Google money”, not to throw at a project like that.
- At the end of the day, it comes down to money.
Actually using state-of-the-art AI to improve the quality of “AI players” would be a huge undertaking, and the company has no reason to commit to something like that.
They would see basically 0 return for that investment, as the vast majority of players wouldn’t take something like that as a major factor when desiding if they spend money or not.
away that might be good to sort out leavers is to perhaps have an AI that acts similarly to the play
So in another game I used to play replaced an AI that’s the same level as the person as in bot level 3 for a higher skilled person and if they do bad for whatever reason bot lv 2
only for heroes it be beginner adept veteran ect
granted don’t solve the original issue of ai’s being bad but still an idea to at least consider
It makes me happy to know you’re sticking around the forums for a bit longer Froggy, they wouldn’t be the same without you.