Why anduin is better noob teacher then li li

Because I’m not convicted at all li li is good. Let me try and convince you why Anduin is better, I’m nice enough to try and to make the forums a better place! :hugs:

  1. He teaches positioning. But better
    In my last thread many of you said li li teaches placement. But unlike you guys I have faced diablo before and boy diablo is a good teacher why you shouldn’t frontline as a hero with low health no escapes

  2. Anduin has a lot of abilities that teaches correct placement
    W and D in particular
    If you pull someone 1m. You realize fast that was a terrible idea
    You wont make that mistake again

  3. You have to work together
    You have a root and a stun called lightbomb
    This requires teamwork and coordination
    These are really useful skills to learn later in the game

  4. Its a simple but complicated hero
    Easy to learn hard to master. You will feel a form of progression

  5. He is decent in higher ranks
    Li li is a healer who is good at low ranks. But at low ranks you shouldn’t play healer. You should play waveclear
    The faster you accept this the faster you get to plat

  6. He gives you great skills to learn and is dummy proof

  • If you wanna be aggressive go aa build

  • If your are a beginner this means you will face fellow beginners and smurfs playing nova

  • Your pull is dummyproof

  • Your ults are gamechanging but you get forced to be aware of other heroes abilities
    Stuns interrupt your salvation
    Dashes are great for lightbomb

While li li only teaches you to go in once in a while and cast E and tickle someone with serpent

Ps if you complain about my spelling I’m dyslectic you monster

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I would be confident in having a fair chance of winning a game, if my half blind 80 year old grandmother was playing Li Li with the Q key held down by a stone and just moved the mouse to follow other players :thinking:

Can’t say the same for Anduin…

I agree Anduin is more versatile and a better teacher for newbies, but noob friendlier? He is very difficult in comparison, especially correct trait usage is very hard, compared to Li Li’s trait… Well, just working automatically when she takes damage.

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Your right I put the wrong title !
See the edit

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noobfriendliest healer and hero in general will likely always be li li and that wont change as the current roster we have could be the final one
she will provide value as long as her autotargeting heal button is held down for 20 minutes

anduin will teach skillshot usage, careful positioning, mana management, talent trees etc. better

the healers i would never recommend to a beginner? whitemane and auriel
i actually still struggle with them despite being lv20+ on both

My personal experience with Li Li is that her throughput is extremely low, especially early game, unless you can abuse taking tiny bits of damage, either from minions, or stepping into tiny ticks of abilities.

I’m level 108 with a lifetime winrate around 52% yet but for a year or so I’m defaulting to 50% of the enemy healer during early game and I quite reliably lose. Last year I started my season with 0:9 on her.

Pressing her buttons is newbie friendly for sure, but winning absolutely isn’t, especially at a rather flat 46.75% winrate (both global and filtered for low).

That being said, my Anduin score is 2:6…

I used to say healing is a great starting role as you can participate and observe, but at this point I’m not sure. I’m looking at my healing results and… nah. Malfurion or Rehgar.

(Deckard + Uther are my best but very low matches and bits of difficulties.)

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So from this are teams that have no healers the ones that climb up better? I guess it could work if you are in a 5 stack and know exactly what you’re doing. I never understood this advice because if everybody on your team hold it true, no one will heal.

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Lili gets stronger if she recieves dmg and has no skillshots or any risky abilities, so she’s really forgiving.
Unlike Anduin, who has skillshots, risky abilites and selfroots himself for his main heal ability.

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With Anduin you need to already have learned where you should position yourself. And whether you should be closer to root or way in the back to pull ally to safety. A middle position pull is useless and makes you look like a fool.
LiLi needs a change in scope though. Keeping the simplicity but at least including one skillshot that may benifit her healing potential.

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I wish she had something to throw out to revel stealth heroes.

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Maybe they should just allow her E on stealth targets, then she could be a pick against stealth heroes. That would also give her an unique purpose.

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Anduin teaches pretty much everything you would expect while also allow you to learn a solid healer with respectable limitations.

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As a new player, I know I learnt nothing from Heroes who “teach” (actually punish) me if I’m bad. Anduin punishes bad positioning, has complex abilities like “when to pull”, “when can I just stand still” and “oh so I need to stand still (why does it hurt)”.

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Point 1 doesn’t make any sense, or at least as a contributor toward the assumption that Anduin > Lili.
You literally just stay out of range of Diablo until he uses his abilities.
That’s part of the point of learning positioning, paying attention to cooldowns.

His trait is actually very hard to use correctly.
Too often I see people pull heroes that wanted to go in, or pull after the fact, or pull such a short distance it doesn’t matter.
I feel like you already need to have a grasp on positioning in order to use it well.

W does rely on positioning, it’s pretty good.
But its largely about lining people up and being behind your allies.
with 10.5 range and 3.5 radius, if you’re healing your W targets you’re far from enemies and relatively close to allies, which makes you not need to worry about the delay or range of Q. And often, to make use if it you need to not be auto-attacking.
That’s one of the key differences.
Lili needs to auto-attack more often than Anduin, but she also generally has the capability.
So she’s concerned with the ranges of multiple targets, being pulled in multiple directions more than Anduin.

Needing to work together, with randoms… well there’s a reason Medivh generally sucks at low levels and is amazing at high levels. Unless he just focuses on himself and getting Q stacks.

Point 4… yeah, Lili kind of is too, that’s the whole game in general. She could use more depth, and I suggested being able to move her Serpent around and gain extra benefit the moment it switches.

Point 5 is dumb.
I play Lili in diamond.
You should play what feels right.

6? Nah, I really don’t like Anduin.
He’s my second least favorite healer, after Alex.
And the reason is, he really doesn’t feel versatile.
AA build isn’t amazing.
The pull is again easy to mess up if the teams are uncordinated (as is almost always the case in solo queue)
The ults are powerful, but individuals can mess them up with shoves or stuns. It’s easy enough to mess up Lili’s ults too. These aren’t like Uther’s, which are so much harder to ruin.

I’d say you should be auto-attacking with Lili more than just about any other support except like Lucio who’s practically unstoppable.
It’s harder to get top damage now, but not impossible.
The reason she can auto more than Anduin is because both her trait, and the lack of delay she has on her healing abilities as well as damage negation from blind.

I know people will say “you’re a healer, you should be healing allies not yourself”
But that’s non-sensical.
If an attack hits an ally and you heal the damage the result is the same as if an attack hits you and you heal the damage.
If attacks are chained and an ally blows up before they can be healed, the healer can’t really do anything. If attacks are chained and the healer blows up instantly, the dps who would have died in the prior sentence can now counter attack resistance free and will accomplish much more than a healer would.
Yes, Uther is better for this due to his trait and overall higher durability, and yeah, it’s generally the tank’s role to do this.
But we’re not always playing ARAM here, fights can develop in separate parts of the map, you just need to be able to adapt, and when it comes to 2v2 fights like say on a Dragonshire point, I feel that Lili is generally going to perform better partly because she’s going to be better at doing this.

As always, the power of a hero is going to depend on the compositions, the map, where exactly the fights break out and who is present in what condition.

I can probably count on my hands the number of times I’ve seen a 1-2 healer comp with the rest as assassins.
But I don’t think I can really recall any healer-less matches in ranked.
I did see an ARAM with 5 tanks, and it was way harder to do anything than one would think.

Would that not suggest to you that you should be purposely trying to do those things?
Yeah, I don’t know, I’m at a 65% win rate with Lili overall, my only one that’s higher is Malfurion.

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If you are the carry type, you need to play waveclear, in a 5 men if your around bronze/silver , the best players should play that role (ofcourse you should pick a healer in your team)
but if you can choose which is usually the case you need to avoid low impact roles.
In low elo there is usually an aram for the first 5 min. Anything that can push is good

Same :frowning: should get a “spill tea” thing

So a perfect learning tool.
Like I said, if you pull someone 1 m away, you will regret it.

He is not that great in high levels either, some people are great on him
but same can be said about other heroes like tracer or hogger

No you should counterdraft if your in high elo, not what feels right
What is your winrate in ranked diamond when playing li li ?

Kharazim? Tyrande? Whitemane?

E build uther
AA build mora
D build BW

And your saying you should autoattack on li li more then those heroes while it offers only a flight damage diffirence.

After 7 anduin doesnt even have to heal himself

In low elo’s they do

By not picking a garbage hero?

Why dont you rotate?

This thread is about noobs.
They should play what they want and just get a feel for the game in general.
They aren’t counter picking.
And later on, counter picking feels right, so still no problem.

Kharazim is melee, less opportunities usually.
Tyrande doesn’t have many tools to help her.
And Whitemane? I guess I auto-attack with Whitemane.
I’m more focused on her trait and laser to keep mana up.
You should because you can, therefore you have to.
It’s like Abathur. You don’t do much damage, so you have to be doing damage as often as possible to make up for it.

You do, later on.
Earlier in the match you want to lane.
And even later on it’s a map with 3 objective points spread over the map.

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heroes tend to not ‘teach’ things, but it is through repetition and failure that people sometimes learn something.

Li li being a ‘teacher’ is a misnomer; she doesn’t excel at ‘teaching’ but she is easier to use – or rather, gets ‘better’ – from the situations that inexperienced players typically have.

Players that don’t know the hero roster, the range, damage of things, wander around and take a lot of unnecessary damage: great, Li li gets cdr from damage taken, and she heals herself the fastest; she has one of the best capacities for self-sustain. While she may not be the sturdiest for dealing with focused fire, she is one of the best at dealing with incidental damage, and new players take tons of that – some don’t ever get out of that.

Outside of self sustain, the other gimmick is simply: her abilities don’t miss.

The idea is that she ‘teaches positioning’ is that the indications for her abilities kick in when something is ‘in range’ and the targeting is automated. Since players don’t have skill shots to align, it can be easier to learn how to ‘feel’ out the range of interactions by having abilities with simpler visual indications for where it is targeted, if it can even be used, and simplifies what input considerations it takes to use and connect with her abilities. This part help that much more because li li’s abilities will cast ‘as is’ while some heroes will move and then cast, and others have other interactions. For newer players, some ability interactions are not visually clear, have ambiguous effects, and have a larger margin to fail.

A lot just mash buttons when they panic, and having less functions with more demanding aiming reduces the capacity for panic-moments to make things worse.

Anduin works when people have an idea of how to stutter (to get more aa heals) how to cope with slower cast and recovery animations, when things are actually ‘bad’ for pulling out a hero, when knowing the difference for when a backline hero needs to set up, and aren’t as prone to panic-casts where long animations, pulling allies (just casthing something) and other actions can actively make a situation worse.

Li li is not a backline hero, and lower ranks dont tend to adopt the assumed ‘formations’ players can learn to use once they learn roles, footies, wombo, etc. An overzealous li li feeds a kill; an anxious anduin feeds two. Anduin’s spell timing, recovery animations, anti-synergetic aspects can make it harder to learn from genuine ‘newbs’ while Li li is not has punishing.

If someone is not actively coaching someone else how to play the game, specific heroes, expanding their roster/roles, then most heroes don’t really ‘teach’ anything. However, there is a time/failure threshold people have to put in to learn the ‘laws’ of a game, and li li has tools that empower her to perform better in some of the usual shortcomings inexperienced players encounter.

If people have not done a lot of interjecting new aspects to other players, seen how newer players ‘learn’ any given game, or don’t know how to not project their current experience onto the the expectations of other people, then they’re probably going to keep on harping on about li li and claim they’re doing everyone else a favor for it.

Part of the thing about ‘ranks’ and player experience isn’t so much that li li doesn’t do well at higher tiers, it’s that the expectations for specific roles is more rigid. Heroes exist to protect healers, so split-targeting gimmicks that don’t carry hard cc tend to not be played as much as those that do. If people don’t play a hero as much, they also tend to not do as well them, and it fuels a cycle of repetition where the lack of success pushes people away from playing that hero more, so then they do that much worse when they ‘test’ the hero again.

That’s part of why some of the issues of li li are more particular to perception, rather than performance, and cycles coming around to her time and again repeat the same things, bemoan deviant statements, and ignore protracted conversations that try to clarify misunderstandings.

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Maybe for her to have a higher skill ceiling but still relatively simple she needs to be a Bruiser Healer hybrid? I mean her trait already encourages you to take damage so maybe some adjustments like gain passive armor and some baseline bonuses while it’s active is in order. Also a tier dedicated to her self sustain so that her team healing output wouldn’t have to compete as much with keeping herself alive

I know the title is anduin vs lili on why you should pick one over the other, but can I just say Lucio? I mean you literally don’t even have to be concious to heal with him, its passive. Not to mention he barely uses enough mana for you to ever run out. Not to mention did you say POSITIONING?

I think this is more hero dependent then role dependent. I agree that healer tends to have a lot of team reliant heroes but I wouldn’t say it’s divoid of the contrary.
I think heroes like brightwing, whitemane or uther can really run away with the game if they are very skilled.
Ive personally climbed from gold to diamond 2 using mostly whitemane.

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