Well, I'm ruining Artanis Now

General Discussion
21

I would like you to reread what I wrote, especially the bolded part.

The point here is to make it more of a trade off, where AO is the talent that gets you more early game value, where Artanis does generally lack. And is probably part of the reason that AO is so good, it is a massive powerspike where his spikes tend to come much later aside from it.

So, what if instead you could make it so the powerspike from PoA came later, making it’s overall power over the course of the average game similar to the very strong amount of power that AO gives Artanis currently.

Because, AO is better, in almost every map.

Part of this would likely require nerfing PoA initially, to try to stop people from blindly picking it. Take away the kill bonus? actually I think you would want to take away the AA bonus. Now that I think about it.

22

No, I play as Tracer, against Artanis. And I can spot the good Artanis from the bad easily.

If you want to constantly damage Artanis, then you follow him as he moves away, you cannot react fast enough to avoid the W when he turns around. Even if he only does it intermittently, (which he should) he deals more damage to you than you are dealing to him, and eventually you have to back off.

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23

I’m sorry to say, but that sounds more like a you problem.
If you haven’t seen how great Tracer players like Dynouh, Nazlowe, TFLutano, Mochrie and Marlow kite all day long, then you’re missing out.

24

Why don’t you show me some play of you as Tracer dodging the Artanis W in the situation I mentioned?

I have never seen Dynouh or Nic or anyone else play Tracer vs Artanis matchup and /or dodge a turn around W. So telling me about great Tracer players doesn’t mean anything in the context of this discussion. I rarely ever see Artanis at that level. So I would be grateful if you would point me to the specific game.

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25

The reason is, is because artanis is currently just considered too weak. Its just his PvE element that compensates on this. And thats why, when you draft artanis, you should go for AO.

But at the same time, this is generaly not realy relevant at gold and below, where artanis could just go into PvP aswel. And at that point it purely depends on the style that artanis takes.

Yes, even on those levels, getting mercs is good, but there can still be a hero in the team that is more efficient at doing so. And having 2 dedicated to merc camps on a map that doesnt have a lot of them is often a bad idea. Better not to waste a talent on that.

But it shows that artanis needs a buff.

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26

yes, but why is he weak?

Personally, I would argue it is because a lot of his power is in lategame. And with AO, you get early power. Hotslogs data shows this (not sure how to access winrate over gametime on Heroes profile, if you even can). But Hotslogs is the worse of the two sites overall in terms of data gathered currently.

(he could probably also use general buffs, but I think part of the reason AO shines is because all of his power talents come later in his kit).

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27

I think the issue is that he has to dive in, just to even do basic combat. His entire kit is about initiating that dive. His part of position swapping doesnt realy help a lot on that either as its more often causing him to get into trouble, rather than getting an enemy in trouble.

This is why survival oriented talents seem almost mandatory on him, and otherwise avoid PvP entirely. And even for the survival talents that he has, its often relying him to AA.

If artanis cant dive in, he cant do anything as he has no ranged attack or supporting ability.

Thats why the AA build (i do consider twin blades an AA build aswel! as it still relies on the AA from twinblades, and both have equal vulnerabilities) is his only decent existing build next to the PvE one (usualy blade dash oriented).

For artanis to become better, he needs a more reliable way to get out of trouble. Even if it still depends on a talent like:
While blade dash is active, activate it again in order to stop at the position you are at.
This allows a backward dash to act as a dash similar to other heroes (a gap closer). It still relies on an ability that is often used as initiator, but thats similar to muradin on that.
I however know that similar ideas have been given before, and wasnt liked because it would become a mandatory talent on him, and change him too much. But that actualy just shows how much of an issue it actualy is.

28

I think the hero is just outdated.

29

There’s a difference between dodging and kiting. Dodging means that Artanis W would be used and Tracer wouldn’t get hit.
Kiting is a hit and run.

I don’t have VODs, but I’ll leave you with this:

30

I don’t see anything useful in that video…

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31

:confused:

So you use recall to avoid it?

???

Given the base moment of heroes, unless someone has insane reaction+ping time, Artanis should be able to W on tracer who is attack him from 5.5 range, if tracer is chasing him and Artanis turns around.

That’s very much an approximation, off of the rough numbers in my head. You get 1-3 game ticks (.0625-.1875) seconds or so to react and adjust moment, as tracer, if Artanis pulls the movement off.

32

Why would you recall to dodge his W when you can kite him?
I’m talking about kiting since the start.

2.5 range difference is enough for a skilled player to accomplish it.
It seems I’m repeating myself. Believe what you want, I guess :man_shrugging:

Ask Liam, nintorii or RussDT for the Artanis vs Tracer matchup. They’ll probably say the same as Nic.

33

And I’m telling you the approx time they’ll have to react with good to decent ping.

Which is approx .0625 to .1875 seconds. Maybe .25 with really low ping.
Average human reaction time is ~.15 for gamers. About .21 for general population.

You didn’t ask them the question, or if you did, they did not answer it fully with context.

34

Here is some math:
-her movement speed is ~4.8/second.

So Artanis is at 2.5 range difference. Tracer is moving towards where Artanis was previously running. You have ~.35-.4 seconds total.

You have ~100ms system latency, 50 ping, now you have .2-.25 seconds. Add in human reaction time you’re in the realm of negative time to .1 seconds of actual time to react.

EDIT: Jeeze, wow, i actually undersimated this actually.
Because I didn’t think about tracer would be moving towards artanis until a reaction happened.
So you have .25 seconds.
Call it low latency, 25ms, low system reaction, 50ms. You have .175 seconds to react. Average gamer reaction time is 150ms.

So you have ~.025 seconds. 0.0

35

It’s not.

Heroes have absolute base Movement Speed of 4.8398 units/second

2.5/4.8398=0.5166

2.5 range is a 0.5166 sec travel time.
Tracer doesn’t always have to walk exactly towards Artanis btw.
0.5166 - (0.1 + 0.05 + 0.1) = 0.2666 sec.

0.2666 * 4.8398 = 1.29 range
added 0.5 range with Tracer Rounds, it’s 1.79 range.

Edit:
I’m sorry Xenterex for adding infos that’s not about Artanis on your thread.

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36

Compared to other bruisers:

  1. he doesn’t have any safe poke
  2. he doesn’t have any out of combat sustain
  3. he doesn’t have any on-demand defensive abilities.
  4. His combo deals less damage than other bruisers.

Part of the issue of 4 is that Artanis is trading a source of damage to get the swap, and after getting it, his own follow-up may not even happen where other bruisers initiating combo may be 200-400 additional damage and create that much more pressure on caught/isolated targets. (lvl 0 numbers, ofc talents can increase that too)

But of those, I think the most defining is probably the lack of on-demand defensive effects. Due to how his passive is automated, and conditional on his hp, it’s possible to deny damage mitigation on Artanis and cause him to take more than he otherwise could.

A distinct lack of “oh noe” button with his capacity to get stuck in the fray can leave him trying to skirmish where other heroes may just walk away, and a key part of that is when allies are out of range to contribute.

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37

the issue is that assumes tracer stands still.
While I do agree that my .25 is to low as a baseline, you’re realistically looking at somewhere in between, probably .35 seconds. With a best case .15 second if you have:
low ping (25ms)
good system lag (50ms)
above average gamer reaction time (125ms).

That leaves you ~.15ms seconds IDEALLY. Simply throwing adding in realistic pings (50-100ms), realistic system latency (75-100ms) and you’re already have eaten that whole .15 second best case at the upper end. Nevermind the extra .25ms for the average player reaction time.

For the people who play the game for a living or are really good, yeah. Tracer can probably ignore this. For 98-99% of the playerbase, this is a move that almost any artanis should be able to pull off successfully against Tracer.

38

I think it’s on-topic; part of the concern is how artanis can engage, so mapping numbers could apply to considerations on how to improve those interactions.

PLUS! the post still at least mention Artanis, so that deactivates the filterbots and their retaliatory nightmare protocols.

39

to be a bit more fair, part of this is because swap can displace heroes a lot further than many other bruisers. Of course, that kind of “team oriented skill” doesn’t matter much when Artanis than gets stuck in the middle of the enemy by doing the same to his target.

While I believe you’re correct, I would note many bruiser lack on demand defense effects, it is just, as you lead into, where Artanis also lacks any real ability to escape.

Wonder if a prism ability semi-akin to helping hand (but targeting (allied? all? enemy only?) minions) could be a potential aid?

Obviously situational, but it would give him a bit more of a way to get out of fights in lane.

40

And this is the main thing I believe is being overlooked here. I have played a fair amount of Artanis into Tracer, and if she doesn’t kite me, I can destroy her, but a good Tracer will always be just out of range, unless I take the W talent at 20. Which I never do against a Tracer comp, as I will typically go Suppression Pulse at 10, and its upgrade at 20.

Good Tracers are never moving directly to or from their target, but strafing, circling, or Blinking in and out to apply Melee or Pulse Bomb. I can sometimes time the W for when I know she wants to come in, but if she is just using me to charge her heroic, there isn’t much I can do unless I get a Chrono Surge swap in, and can slow her down for a few. It is the same reason Blades of a Templar is a must pick against Tracer, as the slow is what allows you to get some damage into her.

Regarding the OP and the discussed changes, a lot of them don’t really seem to address Artanis’ core problems: how one-dimensional his kit is at the moment (single target damage), and his reliance on the enemy team not understanding how his trait works. If he can’t AA other heroes, not only does he lose all of his damage, he loses the bulk of his sustain as well. In addition, it is incredibly easy to bait out his shield, wait it out, then nuke him.

I don’t think your changes really address either of those issues. One suggestion I usually make when this topic comes up is a talent that immediately resets the CD on his trait when certain types of CC is applied (stuns, roots, blinds, for example).

Giving him more AoE options, and some sort of poke tool that doesn’t involve his face (checking bushes on Artanis is difficult) would certainly help, but a lot of the suggestions I normally see, such as him being able to cancel Blade Dash at any time, have their own set of challenges. Giving him tools that make it too easy to engage or disengage means that his damage would likely have to be toned down. When he can get on you safely, he can wreck most heroes. Making it always safe to get on people could easily set up him to be fairly overtuned with his current kit.

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