Don’t understimate Ragnaros on this map too. Moltencore can negate nukes as well, this trait is more powerful than people give credit to it. I remember one game, where my teammate complimented me, because I timed Rag’s trait and it was surprising for him, because he made the experience people barely use it.
On the contrary people tend to overstimate MULE, sure it can heal forts and keeps or core, but it’s heal is very slow and if your team knows how to push and use nukes or other objectives properly, MULE won’t save the structure, especially this little minion is easily destroyed. MULE is only op against clueless pvp player, who don’t know how to push.
Exactly. This map tends to have a lot of pve, but considering how the objective works it’s very pvp-ish. Every player can see, who has coins… and if players would pay more attention to the minimap, they would know that they should prevent Tracer to turn in and it’s not like there are two ways to turn in like in ToSQ, but only one in the centre of the map.
Not exactly. While this may be true on a small map, or one where constant pushing happens, it is incredibly strong on maps like WHJ, Cursed Hollow, or Sky Temple when you typically prep a lane, then have to leave it for the objective. If you stay in lane to push or kill the MULE, your team will be at a disadvantage in the fights over the objective(s). If you go fight for an objective, MULE will have plenty of time to negate your prep. It is the same reason Vikings are very strong on those maps.
You will see Hammer or Sylvanas drafted as counters, as their siege potential is high enough that instead of merely prepping a lane, they can simply steamroll down it. However, without that kind of pushing power, underestimating the MULE can lead to being at a disadvantage, even if you are winning objectives.
Indeed. That’s how counter works, but even Rag or Vikings are great counters to Aba. The latter is also support like Aba. I am quite sure that Rag’s wave will kill Mule, because there is no way to dodge the wave?
And still MULE isn’t a problem, if your team knows how to push or use their nukes wisely. Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to say that MULE is weak or sth., but I just think people overstimate it, because they see it can heal structures. It’s not op, but strong.
Btw. Isn’t even Azmo’s Q strong enough to one-shot MULE?
I think you are missing the point about how to play those maps in terms of setting lanes up for objectives. Sure, MULE can’t counter blind push, but blind push rarely works at higher MMRs unless you are drafting specifically for that, like a protect the Hammer comp.
I usually like to compare this map to hanamura, a map that did obj right. the obj can be contested in many parts of the map and it gives ample opportunity for the losing team to start a comeback. the obj does not take value away from pushing with sololaners and overall I like hanamura for it’s versatility.
see when a losing team goes for boss while the other team is at obj, the winning team has
a higher chance to steal boss ( lvl difference )
can defend boss much easier.
the winning team always has an advantage with both obj and boss since they have more freedom with the map. the losing team is ( almost ) always subject to lose something, whereas the winning team will naturally not lose as much.
im not talking about my experience. im talking about the map overall. in theory, a losing team might have a lvl 20 disadvantage. i dont think you realize that what im saying is NOT that this map has no possible way of coming back from. im saying that once a team begins winning ( coins, macro, exp, whatever ) it naturally becomes exponentially harder to come back from. when my team is winning on BhB we always either go camps for $ for obj which stalls the losing team which results in obj being taken anyways.
see i never said that either. why does everyone assume things these days. I KNEW that ill cause an argument by saying my opinion and now it feels like its my fault others disagree. in fact im saying that obj is way too powerful. and a winning team will have a much higher chance of winning on it, and even if they dont they can retreat and still keep their coins then do camps or boss. alot of ppl dont realize that a huge map = stronger pushes from mercs and minions. the losing team still has to check up on their lanes before going yolo to the obj. thats not how this game works.
you forget that there were 4 other enemy heroes bullying us the whole game. we were losing so we had to tend to lanes, the other 4 enemies, and being like 2 levels down. actually since BhB is a huge map, even going to the obj itself takes enough time for the other team to regroup, assuming we did deal with the macro bullying. and lets not forget the first thing I said. A TRACER was doing this. A tracer thats NOT EVEN ENGAGING whatsoever, who has all the space she needs to retreat in half a second. yea. not as easy as u think.
when youre losing, you really cant do that. see the map is so huge you have to sacrifice a structure if you want to stall an obj, which is basically the same thing.
in theory its a cool map I admit, propably one of the best ones. I like the huge camp variety and the idea of the objective. But unlike the other big maps, playing this one just feels like forgetting the basics of the game and farming coins and preventing the enemy team from paying coins. with WHJ you can 100% prevent the enemy team from getting nukes, but on BhB you can get coins from the safety of your side of the map and nobody will bother you.
maybe I came off as a bit rude, sorry abt that . I dont want to change everyones opinions. Im just trying to accurately explain why i hate that map. youre free to like this map. i mean its not a big deal i can live with this map.
“forgeting the basic of the game”? What are the basics of the game for you? Because I feel that this map teaches you the basics of the game more than any other map. This map teaches you to react to objective more than on any other map, because any task that can be done on the map gives you coins. So it’s basically a permanent objective fight, permanent pressure, there is always sth. to do. Sitting in lane gets punished harder on BHB than on any other lane. I would even say that you can technically solve the lane like ToD, when one solo laner cares for mid and top waves (It’s probably one of the easiest dual-soak lanes in the game), while the others are bottom and around objective looking for constant fights.
this happens at the beginning until one team begins even having the slightest of disadvantages. then the winning team gets control of the HUGE amount of things present on the map: mercs, obj, boss, macro, everything basically. the losing team is pushed back and the winning team has so many ways to snowball harder and the losing team can only really react to the winning team. because as long as the winners are not dying, they cant lose coins or macro, and attempting a comeback results in losing macro further.
in cursed hollow, you have 2 bosses and obj can be stalled, and even when the enemy team has full curse you can still defend it.
in WHJ, you have many nukes ALL of which can be defended even when youre losing, and theres a little bit of mobility on the map. and the camps are decent.
both of these large maps offer ample comeback opportunity, whereas all you can do in BhB is react to what the enemy does. that is unless you do win an obj fight , killing a few enemies, then pay obj and tend to lanes as soon as possible to avoid losing structures. thats legitimately the only way i can think of to begin a REAL comeback, besides managing to kill an overextending hero which is rare cause the map is large and there are tons of things to do anyways. even boss is not a real comeback since the enemy can defend it without major loss.
How? - I’d rather get the impression you’re talking about the scenario, when the losing team lost so hard already that their comeback seems unlikely, but even then this map has a lot of camps to get into the game with xp or lane pressure that enemys have to react to that.
The only thing that might be frustrating on BHB, which I agree on that I don’t understand why bigger camps like bruiser/merc or boss camp gives you coins. No other map combines pve and pvp objectives so much like BHB and that might be too much, because there is no losing progress for obj doing camps while on other maps it can be critical doing camps, when doing sth. for obj. That’s why my proposal would be just remove the coin-reward from such camps, so there are still two differnt tasks with risks. Doing camps is too safe and the reward is too massive compared to other maps.
How can you stall a permanent Sylvanas’ effect for a certain time that let you one shot enemy minions? This objective reward is the strongest reward in the game. That’s why it’s always mind blowing for me, when I see my teammates, who tries to do boss during the curse… it’s always a facepalm reaction for me.
Sylvanas’ trait got nerfed for a reason, because it was too powerful in the past, but Ravenlord’s curse is Sylvanas ability on steriods.
Killing the enemys on BHB can also deny their progress for the objective completely (steal the coins), but you can’t deny the progress for the curse though…
All your argument sort of boils to some form of this. And I think that’s fine. If you’re losing and you choose not to engage, then you only lose harder by not doing anything. Tending to lanes is overrated on the map unless you’re dealing with super efficient double soaking heroes. The reason why I love BHB is there’s none of this BS, oh we’ll just get the next one. Coins are permanent and turn ins almost always at play.
Tracer is amazing because she can pop open chests on the map really quickly. She however does not get impunity to turn in if you’re actually watching the turn in, especially if she doesn’t join in on team fights which makes your fights easier. It also doesn’t really make sense that they’re pushing that hard macro wise if you say Tracer is the one not joining in on fights. If it’s a Xul up top, sure it’s annoying as hell, but that means he is also not at the turn in. I’ve had games where we just don’t tend lanes, kill the team 5v4, then rotate top and pop Xul for all those free coins he gathered. Yes you take some inevitable building damage, but once you lose the front forts, it becomes a lot easier to defend and rotate for overly aggressive pushers. A Tracer who is just getting coins will have pitiful macro pressure.
Why? The real problem came from “too long route between top and bot” and “two bosses”. The latter got removed and the tunnels fixed the first. In fact, if I use the tunnels and I do, I personally feels that this map feels smaller than Dragonshrine, GoT or Cursed Hollow. Only BHB (the biggest map in the game) is a difference.
I don’t care about size anymore the tunnels help alot with that. This map just feels bad to me (and I’m guessing a lot more agree than disagree).
I’m coming up with a solution and I think have 1 central spawn point for the objective is better than this multiple random fights for a fairly weak objective.
My stack when we get this map contest the “multiple” spawn point with 4 man and we split push with the other person. We normally get a fort and 1/2 out of 4 of the nukes. It’s usually more value.
If they made it say 1 nuke spawn that did series damage in the center with descent damage on the outside it would mean u have to contest the objective
. I dont want to change everyones opinions. Im just trying to accurately explain why i hate that map. youre free to like this map. i mean its not a big deal i can live with this map.