Toxic Tutors__________

General Discussion
1

There are people that are really good at this game. Many of them are better than me at it. I can live with this fact.

What vexes me is that almost all advice I’ve ever gotten has been from rude players.

This makes sense though. Nice players are too polite to say anything so the only people to give me growing points are the ones that aren’t scared of hurting peoples feelings.

I had a match where person X gave me crud for a misplay in a rude way, and I replied saying I was covering for their misplay, and they insisted that I was the one at fault. I said nothing more and did as they told, we won, and I went back to watch the replay and it turns out they were actually right and I was at fault.

Still though, does the learning process have to be painful? I will heed a person’s advice regardless of how rude or nice they are, heck, I will walk straight into the enemy’s core if my teammates are all on board for it. I can’t think of any circumstance where pissing someone off will make them more likely to listen. I heeded their advice in spite of their tone, not because of it.

No matter. I run into more nice players than rude players anyways so the net happiness in my free time will always be positive. I just need to mind the occasional bumps that happen.

4 Likes
2

I guess this is typical behavior now
but what aggravates me more are the ones that tell you you’re bad but don’t help you improve
had a malganis say that I was terrible at aiming Orphea’s q when I had the highest damage states for both siege and hero, I picked him up on his bull and quite quickly he was licking my boots saying how good I was and actually had the audacity to friend and group invite me
I thought it was a simple case of a troll but he did it with another who was playing malth. we all knew he was bad but we where winning but he was the only one who verbally abuse him and not tell him how to improve.

1 Like
3

I’m quite surprised at such a nuanced introspective post. You don’t get much of that on the forums.

I can sometimes be that rude person. I don’t intend to be annoying, but when the person is digging into their heels and insist they’re right or your bluntness comes across the wrong way, people are inevitably going to be defensive.

My rationale is, if I see something wrong, especially if it’s a consistent mistake, I’m going to mention something. And that is highly controversial amongst some people. I figure, me saying something doesn’t mean they’re going to accept the advice, but the alternative is that people are going to play sub optimally, so you don’t even let the player who is making a mistake to listen to even make a choice they might not be aware of.

People counter that is going to make a situation worse. I find that to be mostly absurd though, as the reason I’m commenting is because it’s ALREADY bad. Me attempting to not course correct is just resigning to a form of silent abuse.

3 Likes
4

I’m sure people who would argue that mean that the person you’re saying things to would then just troll because they can’t handle it, not really that they’ll play worse, just that they’ll give up so to speak.

5

That does happen on occasion, but I don’t feel that’s common though. Also, those players were so bad, it actually doesn’t make that much a difference. It’s like, oh noes, you’re going to make a game worse because of how badly you were playing, you think you’re going to hurt me more by losing extra? LoL, there’s no extra credit for losing.

I’d actually prefer if they got booted or afk’d so we’d get a bot. On the flip side, quite a few people do wise up and we are able to make a comeback.

I just know, saying nothing, doesn’t allow people to be aware of a choice they can make.

1 Like
6

But saying sometimes can make people toxic, and then throw the match you at least had a chance at winning.

Idk about you but I’d rather have a bad player who’s trying, than someone who just gives up and throws because they got upset.

1 Like
7

If the bad player is trying and doesn’t change, I’d rather they gave up. Give me the bot. And if they become toxic (which I again say is quite rare), then you actually do have a legitimate report for trolling which is more serious than chat abuse AND it is something that can be corroborated with stats that they check for. Blizzard does routinely ban these players.

1 Like
8

it doesn’t, but it usually will be.

I’d group ‘learning’ into 3 methods: imitation, hard contrast, and appeal to bias.

For people to ‘learn’ something, they have to be in willing to consider there is something for them to ‘learn’ in the first place. When people ‘already know’ something, they tend to be unwilling to consider other perspectives apart from their own. For a game like HotS, in many cases both players can be “right” about something, but if they don’t know enough to consider a different perspective, then they assume anything else is ‘wrong’ and only by being the one to concede to the other possibility does that seem ‘right’ because cooperation is usually better than not.

People generally don’t think to review past play without incentive to do so, so by having a ‘painful’ experience, you’re in a position to both check and consider something apart from what you already think. It doesn’t take ‘pain’ to be in that position, but it can be hard to learn how to learn that way as learning how to learn is both a skill in itself and a habit that needs to be maintained. Whenever I pick up a new game, there’s usually some stumbling point where ‘challenge’ exceeds my perspective to consider options and I’ll get frustrated with the game and have those ‘growing pains’ (so to speak) before I consider changing my perspective to overcome that snag and learn more about that game.

The usual habit people pick up is blaming something else first, as so long as they consider something else at ‘fault’ they don’t have to reconsider their own position, review it, and really think and see what they or anyone else is doing. I usually make a metaphor with driving on this stuff as people ‘know’ how to drive, but until they get into a collision, and are faulted for it, will they reconsider if they actually are doing something incorrectly.

Whenever I drive to visit parents (eg, Mother’s Day,) I pass a particular shopping plaza that has an entrance south-bond cars are not supposed to take: it’s a double line on their side and it’s a double line because that’s the left turn lane for north-bound traffic at an intersection, so it cannot accommodate both sides at the same time. Despite the obvious visuals and implications for problems, I usually encounter someone trying to use that as a mid-lane and then cause traffic to slow around them for it. Until some ‘painful’ experience forcibly gets them to consider some other action – such as driving a few seconds further south to the actual plaza entrance – they’ll just assume that it is the fault of any and everything else around them that they didn’t get ‘their way’ and how dare someone say anything else cuz… ignorance is bliss. Supposedly.

1 Like
9

Pretty toxic don’t you think?

10

Your earlier post was about someone giving up and becoming toxic?

So in your situation we can:

  1. Stay silent about a bad player, even though their actions are actively contributing to an outcome that is negatively affecting the team that will almost certainly lead to a loss, even though you have advice (and I’m not talking about silly things about things after the fact like team comp or talents that can’t be changed).

So in this scenario, we’re just hoping that this player will magically get better all by themselves even though they’ve demonstrated a pattern that they don’t know what they’re doing.

  1. We say something and offer advice for a change. This can be done with honey or vinegar, depends on your people skills.

This could potentially get them to change their behavior or they continue playing the same way they’ve been playing that will also most likely lead to a loss. They can also give up and become toxic.

How is me hoping someone who is actively contributing to the game in a negative manner to leave the game toxic? For one, my thoughts don’t control other people, and two, why should I have to put up with thought control and think toxic behavior is okay and/or someone who refuses to change is good. I’m not asking them to leave, I’d just rather they gave up, because a bot is oftentimes more useful than someone who spends the whole game soaking.

11

Trying takes time to actually see change. When a player tries during your game, you’re not going to see obvious change or at most very minimal, but they are going to get better in future games. I think it’s to your benefit in the long run to not discourage them, even in a losing game. Because in the future, once you get matched with them again, you’ve got a stronger player on your side. I’m just saying there are more reasons than, you know, being a decent human being on default.

12

When I say I’d rather they gave up, that doesn’t mean I’m openly antagonizing them to discourage them. That choice is entirely on them, I’m just presenting a choice they might not have considered.

It also depends. A player simply coming to a fight when they’d been avoiding them the whole game, or telling people to be more aggressive and not hide behind the healer can have huge immediate impacts. My comment is really more directed at people in which you tell them how to change and they won’t.

But it’s funny you mention future games. That’s also a huge reason why I say something, because even if they don’t learn now, there’s a possibility they’ll mull over what I’ve said and be better next game.

13

Oh I see what you mean now. Your previous comment made it seem like you actively just tell a passive player to not play.

So many times have I improved from a player giving me a short comment on a specific ability or something. I’d absorb it less if they were rude but I still would either way. It’s good that you say something, but I’d be careful if I were you. For misplaced reporting I mean.

14

This is the result no matter what. You can tell them to stop face checking bushes, but it doesn’t mean they’re going to do what you say. More often than not, they’ll just get upset and make matters worse. So most of the time I say nothing and just let them do whatever. They’re not going to go from doing stupid stuff to making amazing plays just because you tell them so… especially if they’ve formed habits.

Because you’re basically saying that if they aren’t good enough for your standards, they shouldn’t play. I don’t mind as much you telling them how they can improve, but wishing a bad player quit and gave you a bot instead (which in my experience isn’t at all better than bad players) has a toxic aura behind it. If you can’t see that idk what to tell you.

15

If the enemy healing is 400% our healing and all my team does is an aram. I will also toxic tutor

1 Like
16

It’s a good thing our reality doesn’t have wish dragons and genies! :smiley: So wish away baby!
Honestly ppl who are going to get tilled at advice even if it’s in a nice way were intent on losing the game anyway and I wish they go play a single player game :slight_smile:

2 Likes
17

There’s a difference between wishing someone would go play a single player game, than wishing someone would quit so that you can get a bot instead, which brings less value than a person who’s trying. The key word here was someone who’s trying, not someone who was trolling in the first place.

If someone is trying, I don’t want them to quit. They’re putting effort at least and that’s worth more to me than a bot who will overextend anyway and feed.

How would you feel if you’re not very good, but trying, and having someone point out every one of your mistakes? Probably not very good huh? Its not like you telling them anything is going to magically make them as good as you want them to be. If anything, it’ll just make them want to give up and throw the match. If people in this game had a backbone, and weren’t as sensitive as they are, they shouldn’t throw… but that’s just not how the world is anymore.

1 Like
18

There’s actually no functional difference because wishes don’t have any power. The game can’t transcribe my thoughts and then project them to the player and then taunt them to leave.

Bots are terrible, some players are genuinely worse. If you tell someone how they can change, and they don’t, that’s someone unwilling to learn, and for the purposes of winning the game, a bot often is a lot more useful than someone who is soaking and won’t join fights.

I’d rather people not get upset, but if someone gets triggered over something that will potentially improve their play, that’s more on them than me, especially if you’ve tried to be diplomatic and nice about it. Some people change and turn around the game, some people grumble or call you an idiot, and improve anyways. Some people stay silent and change. A few times, my calls are wrong and they ignore me.

Do some people throw? Yeah, but like I said, if you were already headed towards a loss, and someone is trying to play worse, it’s like, did you not realize you TRYING was already getting us there?

Are you projecting? That’s not even close to my general experience. Also, how would you know, if you don’t say anything?

It could and it sometimes does make a difference. It could also backfire. Saying nothing will guarantee you that they’re likely to continue to doing what they have been doing that was already contributing to you losing. If you wanna call my hope that people can change, a toxic aura as well, I don’t care.

I guess hoping someone will improve is toxic. And then if they refuse to improve themselves and you hoping they’d leave so the other four have a better chance to win is toxic, but putting up with someone who refuses to make changes isn’t toxic.

19

The thing is, in my experience at least, even if you’re nice and diplomatic, people will still have a fit. So why not just stay quiet, gl next, and not cause any of that to be blown out of proportion by them. Not only can you tilt the other player, but that can cause them to fire back at not only you, but the whole team and cause everyone to be tilted. I think its just better to keep your mouth shut, than risk matters getting worse.

I have said things so so so many times, and I’ve been met with toxicity more often than not. Good for you that people aren’t that way in your experience. But you can’t generalize that your experience governs all experiences of players.

That’s why we have a difference of opinion majority of the time. We obviously experience different things and it shapes our vision of the game. I mean, why do you think my other account got banned? If I was wrong about the actions needing less and less reports than it must have been that people are oversensitive, overreact, and report… even when I just tell someone to not face check a bush or wait for the tank.

This isn’t what I was saying was toxic… it was the fact you think people shouldn’t play if they suck.

20

That’s not what I said at all. Everyone has a right to play even if they suck. That doesn’t mean I have to like it. It’s also not a crime to want people who are being obstinate to leave, especially when it has zero bearing on the game.

Well, here’s a hypothesis, and it could be totally BS conjecture. You’ve said in the past that it’s always the fault of the four if your team engages in a 4v5 which I think in itself is a pretty pernicious mentality to have. But think of the consequences of that thinking, in addition to being a bad teammate, imagine how many more reports you’re likely to get by pissing off your team and then having the audacity to blaming the team for being together.

While I might generate a report here and there, you’d probably stack them a lot higher, and much faster.