Actually last time I played Lunara with Greater Spell Shield, I discovered something, that seemed like a bug at 1-st, but it turned out that it was working as intended:
You can cancel it within 3 seconds after it activates. And you can re-activate it at any time you want. You still need to wait for the cooldown to be over before it actually has an effect again, or before you can cancel it 2-nd time. But technically you CAN cancel future triggers after it activates.
I thought it’s a bug, because I don’t see the cooldown while it’s not activated, and it seemed like a way to keep it active 24/7. But after trying to do that, I saw that it does have cooldown 
Tychus himself can be fine, but unlike most talents in the game, these 2 conflict with each other and actualy cause the other to get nerfed more and more later on.
With ITR the idea is to stack a long duration, so you can deal additional damage. TTS gives self sustain to allow you get back into the fight faster (basicly when minigun is ready again).
But when both are taken, TTS is much more efficient when you only got 3 seconds of minigun compared to having a 10 second. Taking this talent means you shouldnt be stacking minigun anymore unless you can make a kill.
This requires a very odd decision: Not attacking the enemy because your quest progresses.
Sure, its the same as those situation in which you shouldnt attack a hero (like genji), but in the case of tychus its a conflict within his talent tree itself. And that shouldnt be the case.
And thats why the synergy got killed. Sure, there are 2 alternative talents on that tree, but a self sustain talent is usualy dominating because you cant always have a healer nearby (or there might be none within the match - QM remains possible).
Its not broken, but it doesnt feel right. Having even just some self sustain directly (could even be just 20%), would already give it a direct effect that can be noticed during a fight. And by that make it feel less weird even though in this case it still has that conflict in it. Just because 20% of the healing is at least a reliable value.
There also has been a few seperate alternatives for this:
- TTS gives its healing each 3 seconds and doesnt wait until the ability is over.
- TTS is granted directly again, but weakens each 3 seconds (losing 50% of its healing, so after 9 seconds you would only have 12.5% remaining).
- ITR gives tychus the ability to cancel minigun (and trigger the healing directly). Potentialy put behind a subquest of ITR so you need minigun to be activated for at least x seconds to turn it off.
The ITR and TTS synergy is what made tychus a good hero to practice with. It was reliable, it was effective, and simply allowed the player to play in a natural way without having to care about overprogression. In the current state, ITR is one of the worst talents to start with, even though it appears like its a perfect one. Just because you are going to cut yourself later in the match.
1 Like
And when was the last meaningful change to Valla? Not now.
And Greymane got the same treatment and he has no recent skins (he has pretfy few).
And how many Heroes got meaningful changes now without recent or many skins?
That argument has no base and proof and therefore pretty dumb.
1 Like
Classic Hots will be announce at the next blizzcon.
Those change are just a taste of it.
1 Like
Heroes of the Storm Amplified will be announced soon™, completely remastered engine and heroes, and even migrate your current collection!
/s
4 Likes
Its activision. They obviously wont do that. You just get a discount for 3 heroes (from a preselected list of unpopular heroes). You can however upgrade your favorites list to contain 8 heroes instead of 4 and unlock an additional 10 useless heroes!
To make it worse, they added in a few new unknown heroes, which are only used to make the hero pool larger, but effectively are just alternative assassin choises that are mediocre at best. But hey, at least you get 2 of these heroes for free as part of the tutorial!
Obviously, the old maps arent being reworked (except for hanamura). Instead we get 3 new maps so the total map pool becomes 4 maps!
1 positive side, balance exists again because they finaly have a bigger team again and a bigger playerbase to make it easier for balance. Although, thats for just 1 year, after that they break it again
Also, its most likely going to be called Heroes of the Apocalypse so it doesnt directly reference this game and sound more fresh.
1 thing they also did is making the game not F2P from the start. The money barrier should extend its lifetime so they can make an F2P event once the game is much better and starting to die slowly. However, the more games people have, the lower its cost will be.
And the silence system gets a rework, people no longer will be able to report anyone, they can now just mute. Reporting has been removed entirely and the game itself just tracks the stats of players to decide who is AFKing. We all know how reliable the MVP system is. This surely will work well
/fixing it even further
1 Like
And would require a nerf to tychus.
The ones the OP talked about were…
And the OP brought that up, right?
Oh, wait… the OP DID NOT bring that up.
it is to much to ask you read the discussion to get a sense of context? Because if you don’t, don’t bother entering the discussion.
Once the context of the thread and OP, the examples given were reverting past nerfs that were purely number changes.
The decision is about if the heal is worth it if your time to heal keeps increasing.
Or rather, do you need to cast Odin to get healing now, or can you save it?
As that is the only way to pre-emptively end minigun iirc.
It got killed because it was insanely powerful.
Not because of whatever it is you’re trying to say.
You could, I dunno, take it and get a different survivability talent?
I know it sounds crazy…
If you’re playing tychus as a carry/hard DPS… yeah, you should always have your healer.
And balancing around QM is asking for trouble.
Dealing with things that make QM very unfun, or break QM. Yes, absolutely!
But balance around it? LOL.
Maybe if you only use games with at least a tank+healer on each team for winrates?
Even if your analysis is correct, it’s misidentifying the problem. You talk about all the level 4 talents in relation to how they do with the best level 13 talent.
If there is a level 13 talent that is better than all the others in every situation (I disagree with your analysis of the L13s, but that’s beside the point here), then that is a poorly designed talent that needs a hard look to determine why it’s preferable to everything else. What it doesn’t need is more buffs from talents at other levels. That’s just going to aggravate the real problem, not solve it.
1 Like
I just worded it incorrectly here, because yes, that was obviously the reason. But even just nerfing it doesnt instantly kill the synergy entirely. It just weakens it (which would have been fine).
I actualy ment that because the synergy is now conflicting, it now became something you should never take. And thats what i ment with killing.
Survivability != Self sustain. For a hero that has to get up close, receiving damage is a realistic thing to face. In most cases you cover this with self sustain, or having a healer on your team. In draft i would totaly agree: take a diffirent talent.
But QM is still a gamemode (and its more popular than draft), and if a balance issue can be fixed without realy affecting draft modes, then why not? In a team with a healer, those other talents are often already better when going for ITR anyway.
And also, note that the range nerf is actualy part of the problem, if his range wasnt nerfed this much, his self sustain issue would have been much lower. And we dont even complain about that issue! Its just that this noob trap of talents is making poor tychus players worse over time.
Suddenly: kharazim is both the healer and sacrifices himself to act like something closest to a tank.
Yes, QM can have this situation. Its what makes QM for many players much more interesting. Who knows what people can make up in draft that works? Forcing certain types into the measurement doesnt work.
Measure everything and then filter out clear mismatches (games where heroes massively conflict) and already unbalanced games (5 individual silvers against a premade of golds) is a much better thing to do.
Niches exist. And you want to be sure you include those. A tank vs zarya might still end up balanced as zarya can cover a lot on that aspect. Even an illidan can act like a tank when being covered by a decent healer/support.
Butcher’s Brand is more powerful than Tychus’ ITR + TTS. I can’t imagine Butcher getting a nerf where the healing would be applied after brand expires tho. Have you seen that sh*t? He’s at 10% HP, you are at 100% HP, he hits you once, he is at 25% HP, you are at 75%. He hits you 3 more times and you are dead, and he’s almost full of HP.
Tychus role is similar, as he also needs to get close to the enemy in order to deal his damage. Even if he was a good duelist back then, you could still stop face trading with him, move back, wait for his D to expire, then re-engage. Doesn’t take 200 IQ to figure that out. But I guess some people are too dain bread to try thinking…
Problems with his level 13 talents are:
- 1 of them is reactive, you use it to counter your enemy’s actions. If they don’t do stuff you can counter, it doesn’t do anything.
- 1 of them is a level 1 talent in the wrong neighborhood (as Kith called it), that does nothing for your survivability.
- 1 is a pro-active talent, that always has value, unless you die before Minigun expires.
While the spell armor talent can be useful, it’s not ALWAYS useful. While you can theoretically get value out of TTS against any kind of composition. It’s a lot more well rounded talent, and that’s why I think it’s the best one on this tire.
They can give him a talent that heals him for 30% of his max HP over 3 sec for all I care, and then THAT would be the best talent on the tire. As it will be reliable in any situation.
As I said, I disagree with the analysis, but the solution to your problem is not to reintroduce the synergy between the putative best talent and a talent on another tier. How would you change tier 13 so that all the talents are on par with one another and viable?
1 Like
Instead of 75 spell armor, it could give 50 armor, but renders you unable to move for the time it’s active. So you can use it to soak damage, but enemy can just move away if you use it. This way it’d be useful against physical attacks as well, so you can always get value out of it.
Then I’d give him a talent that grants him shield equal to 30% of his max HP, which lasts for 3 sec.
And ofc reverting the TTS nerf.
This way you will have 1 talent that gives you a good self-sustain, but is bad against burst.
1 talent that is good against burst, but has limited value.
And a talent that is good against both burst and sutain, but hinders you in other ways.
1 Like
Even with “In the rhythm”, “That’s the stuff” isn’t must-pick, it’s more baseline pick, which is that if you don’t have a good reason to pick Neosteel armor, you pick “That’s the stuff”. (Spray 'n Pray is essentially trash though.)
Honestly if “Master Assassin” wasn’t so impossible to stack it would be fine. Bump it down to 10 kills, bump the bonus to 2% AS per kill, and add 5% attack speed reward at 10 kills. Bam, you fixed it.
Also, they need to add Synergy with his talents and Odin. There’s far too little Synergy between the two.
2 Likes
Are you alleging this could be balanced without negatively impacting draft?
Because if you have a solution/idea… I’ll all ears.
Yes, and with Zarya, Tassadar and Morales i’m Sure even Abathur could tank half decent.
Sanctification is stronger than Holy World shield.
I made a pointless comparison, who does the next one?
… no. Just no.
100% agreee
Indeed you did. If Holy Word: Salvation was to be nerfed, then your comparison wouldn’t have been pointless tho.
https://youtu.be/mJxkfOIjq84?t=1080
I didn’t look for too long, and just stopped at the 1-st decent example I could find. See how Butcher 3 shots Jaina at 75% HP. Yeah, it’s not showing the healing part, but it’d be too troublesome to look for a game where Butcher actually does that. I have seen this video where a 100% HP Sonya is chasing a 10% HP Butcher, and when she catches up with him, she dies and he leaves at full HP. It was a while ago, and I can never find that vid again.
You could always, you know, do the math.
At level 1, with his quest completed, Butcher could heal just under 25% (~24.7%) per hit.
His HP scales at 4.5%, so without some real finnicky stuff, you’re not going to heal 25% of your HP a hit.
If you want to use numbers do the math.
At level 20, with a quest finished, he would heal ~765 damage per hit, with ~4968 HP. About 15.4% of his HP. You could increase that by 35% with talents at level 20, to about 20.8% of his HP.
Wow! A duelist hero can solo one who isn’t a duelist!
Tychus is a melee duelist who wants to 1v1 enemies, right? That’s 100% his role?
Oh, it’s not… oh. Darn. Maybe a melee duelist who takes a long time to power up and can be shut down from getting any damage from their trait by the enemy team isn’t a good comparison to Tychus!
before you but in, yes. Tychus trait damage can get shut down by killing him. But his trait does something from the start of the game. Butcher’s takes until he gets his quest done).
Okay, I wasn’t that lazy and I played a game with the Butcher, just to show this to you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KKRWKVwIX0
From 25% HP to 90%+ in 4 basic attacks. Enjoy!
Tychus could NEVER do something like this.
and, like I said in the post you responded to:
Well, in a lot of 1 on 1 situations, Rhythm of the stuff made you pretty much invincible.
But I do agree that there’s always been anti synergy with Odin. It used to straight up be a dps decrease until they buffed it. But even now, when you activate it, you cancel most of your talents.
I’m not even sure why activating Odin has that huge delay. It’s not like you can burst people with it.
1 Like