QM gives one side 3 warriors, why?

Super massive untrue. That’s like Neil DeGrass Tyson’s assertion that reproduction would be impossible if copulation were unpleasant. Smart guy, not always right and that creed doesn’t hold up regardless of who sells it.

The capacity for people to improve at anything involves some sort of pain. Whether it’s physical through sports or martial arts, mental from learning, emotional through trying to realize the best expression of the piece and so on. The capacity for people to feel the reward of overcoming a challenge is the contrast from pain be it from work, sustenance, or relaxation.

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Ah…but it is absolutely true. Why endure the physical pain of going to the gym? To gain the greater pleasure of the feeling of being strong and in-shape.

Why go through the pain of filling out your taxes each year? To avoid the pain of going to jail.

Why don’t I eat ice cream everyday? To avoid the greater pain dying young.

You could absolutely reproduce if copulation was unpleasant to gain the greater pleasure of having a family and being a father. Many people who struggle with starting a family go through some unpleasant procedures in an effort to reproduce.

Why do I play video games? To avoid the pain of boredom, to gain the rush of competing in something, and the satisfaction that comes from my team winning.

Kind of getting off topic but I enjoy the banter.

Then the question becomes, better for whom? The person who just wants to play Hanzo will still be displeased because their queue times could easily be astronomical as the match-maker now has to find 9 other people close to their MMR, two of which are tanks two are healers, no hard counters, or at least not more than one, CC to make up for the lack of theirs, a hero that can solo lane, and so on. If someone wants to play Diablo, the match-maker can’t put the person who queued as Malthael with a friend on Tychus on the enemy team.

This could be doable if the population online at any given time was very high, but that isn’t the case here. The thing is, there is no one standard of “better” that will make everyone happy, so which group gets to be made miserable?

To me, the problem isn’t with QM in and of itself, but with the expectations people bring to the mode. They want ideal comps (of course built around their hero of choice), the correct map (heaven forbid they get BhB!), 20 second queues, and people who aren’t tired, tipsy, or tilted. That just isn’t happening.

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The schism of ‘reward’ mechanisms just see things as as polarized set and try to cast all other possibilities into the dimetric assertion that it is either one or the other, but otherwise persists in ignoring options that don’t suit the polarity.

Someone could endure pain for the purpose of enduring more pain. One might phrase the goal/check of enduring pain as a means of turning into reward for their metrics, but the drive they have may not operate on ‘pleasure’ sensors in the first place. An object compelled by gravity isn’t motivated by reward/pain, it just does.

Some are motivated by the opposite and don’t want a reward at all, though some aspects of realizing that may profess that ‘pain’ is the substitute, but some actions simple don’t want pain or reward, they just want to ‘be’.

Some actions are done out of a sense for duty or an agreement in a contract. While some may interject that the notion must therefore cause them pleasure to fulfil, or to avoid pain in not completing it, but the obligation can actually be a matter of ‘nothing’ to them. The idea tends to see that is improbable or assert that such notions are 'guised through repurposed prose of the pain/pleasure rhetoric, but that’s the gist of the schism: things “have” to adhere to that notion, otherwise they are rejected.

While some understanding [we] had in non-human entities were content to assume they didn’t feel pain (such as plants) and that’s been revealed to be untrue, but part of the concern of being a “rational” being is that we don’t actually have to be motivated by the polarized labels for pain/pleasure, even if they do motivate most, even without their knowledge of consent. “We” aren’t just fight or flight or pursuing a ‘greater good’.

Most choices are only an option so long as people think them to be so, so so long as people don’t think there is an alternative, they won’t act on it. Much as the case with a lot of qm complaints: their frustration is an expression of their understanding and expectations, and not necessarily the ‘flaw’ they may assert.

Since people tend to only understand an object relative to its opposite (as complementary functions offer perspective) it makes it that much harder for people to understand the scope of something beyond just two options; something is only ‘true’ or ‘untrue’ as being ‘conditionally true’ just means that it’s still ‘true’ at some point, right?

Esp since our ‘understanding’ of anything could be based on what it is ‘not’. How does one describe sight to the blind, sound to the deaf, smell to the anosmic or taste to the ageusiac?

There is either the presence of color, or the absence of it; white being all of them, specific hues only being some, and black being none; but so long as we can’t “see” colors that don’t exist in the three cone eye, then we can’t “see” what we can’t see, right?

However, being unwilling to accept another option doesn’t make it true that the option then doesn’t exist.

Impossible, no, but people wouldn’t reproduce without a the biological desire to copulate in the first place

Not necessarily pain, but discomfort. You cannot improve without taking yourself out of your comfort zone.

This is why when practicing music, many musicians will play a difficult passage slowly, then work on making it faster until it’s faster than what they normally play. If you can play it decently at a much faster pace, you’ll likely play it flawlessly at a slower pace.

That isn’t pain, though, that’s taking yourself out of your comfort zone.

Still, Tyson is right. You don’t need to improve to reproduce, you only need to be good enough. If the process was unpleasant, the species would not reproduce. The desire to procreate is a primal instinct, organisms don’t make a choice, they just act on those primal desires.

That’s the whole bit about why he was wrong. I didn’t use the exact quote, and perhaps it would make more sense if I had --or not used it at all, cuz it is really a quote people know?-- but given the choice of terms (and the following discussions pertaining to those) he is not right in that regard, esp since some species don’t go exist from procreative pains.

Some creatures that have very unpleasant reproductive processes also have adaptations that influence compatibility in that regard.
Signalling practices indicate that there is choice, and even ones that have forceful behaviors have biological filters to screen out prospective parents.

The idea may be that something only needs to be “good enough” and not improve from that point, but that means that there were inferior standards that were worse, so by comparison, something was better (or an improvement) compared to something else. And if something isn’t good enough, then they’re selectively filtered out.

Also, I’m all for some gradations for terms indicating particular bits, but the extent of ‘pain’ is pretty much defined by discomfort. While some may phrase the idea that pain/pleasure are a spectrum, so some aren’t enough to be the other, the comparison uses “pain” because that’s more vivid a comparison when looking at reward mechanisms. People that don’t want *any" discomfort look to avoid any ‘painful’ possibility. So it’s not so much about the severity (or word to indicate it) but the contrast to not being ‘rewarded’ for what they do do.

As can be seen by some topics on the forum, not being rewarded is akin to being in ‘pain’ for some people. Their aversion (or tolerance) is such that their ‘normal’ functions on reward, or more reward.

Oh, I thought you were trying to say something else, now I get your point.

Yes, humans have to WANT to improve, in order to improve, and we need to take ourselves out of our comfort zone to do so. I wouldn’t necessarily call it pain, but yes, it definitely requires a willing discomfort on the part of the player wanting to improve. Of course it can happen organically over a long period of time, but the fastest rate of improvement comes from taking yourself out of your comfort zone.

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That is the definition of descent with modification. In order for an organism to survive, it only has to survive well enough to reproduce. The design doesn’t have to be perfect, it just needs to be good enough.

This is why despite our retina being in our eye backward, it’s good enough to see with and our brain fills in the areas where we can’t actually see because of the massive clump of nerves in the way.

The survival of a species only requires that the organism be modified well enough to reproduce in equal number or greater than its death rate.

yea; in hindsight I guess I could just have used me as an example: “This is Xenterex, Xenterex writes a lot, but usually misses the mark, but he keeps on trying anyway. Do/Don’t be like Xenterex(?)”

XD

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And thus we can blame the hots players (and the devs too for catering to this demographic) and all of its expected problems

First of all MMR is a Match Making Rating. It says nothing about what team compositions are. Thats not what your MMR does. Not in the slightest.

Second… What if nobody queues up with the exact compositino that YOU think it should? Should everyone be forced to wait until someone comes along and queue up with the appropriate hero for your own selection? I’m going to let you in on the joke… that will (effectively) never happen. Not because Blizzard wouldn’t want that to be the case, but because statistically, it’s an unrealistic expectation.

It’s unrealistic but it would encourage players to switch roles (or the game folds). In LoLs case it worked but that could’ve been due to a different mindset in the playerbase

No it’s not realistic. It requires that there be a specific subset of players in the queue. You can see how this works out in WoW by rolling any of the three roles. Tanks get instant games, Healers near instant, and DPS end up waiting 30-40 minutes to get matched.

What you are suggesting happen, that if you queue up for a hero that you want to play, that you may not get to play that hero.

THAT DEFEATS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF QUICK MATCH.

Rather than force everyone else to play the game the way YOU want to play it, you can do two things RIGHT NOW to ensure that your team gets the composition that YOU believe should be ideal: 1. You can queue up with a team of your friends, all of whom have agreed to the team composition ahead of time, or 2. you can queue up for one of the two draft modes.

End of story.

Hots players will also object to a role queue in ranked using the same arguments you made for no role queue in quick match

If you want to DRAFT your composition, then play Storm League.

If you want to get in to QUICK MATCH, you play Quick Match games.

If you don’t understand those fundamental truths about the game, you’re just muttering nonsense.

And I’m saying ranked isn’t the solution as it is right now. What if 5 dps mains get matched up in ranked? You lose. That isn’t a role queue right now and will never be as hots players object to role queues

You completely operate in a vacuum of extremes here. I’m not suggesting any qualitative measures of better or worse, none whatsoever. In fact, I’m positing to you that any change toward curating QM comps will gum up queue times and instead of listening to assassin mains whine about everyone else not playing the tank, or the tanks whining about how they didn’t get assassins that carried the game for them, or whatever else-- we’ll just have a slew of complaints about queue times in what should be a quick match.

Better? Worse? Far from it. I’m literally saying 90% of proposed changes to QM will just be trading one set of complaints to another. And if that means sitting and waiting for matched comps… I mean, 3 tank isn’t even that bad, if you have high control assassins, good %shred, and I haven’t seen you bring up even once that three bruise/tank means that team is woefully underfunded for damage compared to a comp with assassins, or less able to trade off than the other comp with two heals three damage.

I guess you got me, though. All this really is is me being tired of listening to people invent new, inane crap to blame their losses on. I dunno why you people care so much, if a loss causes you such duress as to stomp onto the forums or onto reddit to throw a tirade, maybe it’s not matchmaking that’s causing a problem here. But hey, hell, I’m just crazy and think that sidegrades are largely arbitrary in a context like matchmaking.

So what you are saying is that YOU want to play whatever you choose to play but everyone else should picked around you so that you feel that you’ve gotten a fair game.

I see now.

:roll_eyes:

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I’m willing to wait longer times if role queue was announced. Dps mains who aren’t hardcore dps mains may switch to another role. If not, dps mains will have to wait longer

Btw if the devs see this and implement role queue then debate whether dps should be split into mages/marksmen or kept simply as ranged assassin

Exactly! If you can’t win the team fight, then focus on the soak, push and camps. Win via solid macro play.

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