(OFF TOPIC) Who would win in a fight?

General Discussion
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Invincible? From everything I’ve seen, no. Frostmourne is just really powerful and is able to share that power with its wielder.

As I’ve mentioned the last time a similar topic came up surrounding Deathwing and Elementium, nothing is indestructible.
Every substance has a melting point, a sheer and tensile strength, and a molecular and nuclear bond strength. Exceeding any of those will damage or destroy it. If magic somehow makes it invulnerable, then what happens when that unstoppable force/immovable object meets its counterpart? It devolves into wand-measuring, a comparison of who’s magic is more magicky, and that never goes anywhere.

Even then, even if you still want to fall into the trap of claiming something is “indestructible” or “invincible,” there’s still the issue that it may not protect you. You can easily be killed through “indestructible” armor is someone hits your helmet hard enough – the blow will smash your indestructible helmet through your very destructible head. Heat will seep through the armor and roast you alive inside it. Acid will get in the chinks and dissolve your flesh, or release noxious fumes that kill you if you inhale them.

There is no such thing as a “perfect defense.”

If an Ultralisk stepped on Arthas, or if a Baneling or Roach managed to soak him in acid, or if a horde of Zerglings dogpiled him and bodily ripped him apart, or if a Glaive Worm burrowed through one of those many chinks in his armor, his body would be destroyed and he would die. His armor and wards would not be able to protect him from those things.

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83

I don’t think there’s a biological function to it in that sense rather every organic thing already has the ability to tap into it

In other words Aba couldn’t just eat Jaina’s essence aand give it to the Zerg and boom every zergling is spewing arcane missles.
But if he had a few days and was allowed to actually study Jaina’s mind as she casts then he could do just that.

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84

The Zerg could easily infest magic users and convert them to the Swarm’s side, though that may not work for things like the Light, which rather than being something ambient that can be channeled it seems like something that must be bestowed by some higher power.

And if there is any physiological link to wielding magic, the Zerg would figure it out and adapt it. However, we cannot assume this possibility is the case, so I would not factor this potential into their capabilities.

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Now how is a relatively slow Ultralisk or 40 very loud zerglings supposed to get to him before he just rips out their souls, stops their heartbeats or any of the other numerous forms of hax.
What about boiling their blood from the oh by the way something similar is literally what the flamethrowers from the Firebats do and I don’t think any zergling has become resistant to that yet)
Oh and the anti-magic shield, acidic elements get stopped by these by regular death knights all the time and since that thing is literally converting the energy and is virtually impenetrable by non kinnetics, there goes the idea of using the acid.

All sorts of shenadagins that fall into the realm of Hax Arthas has things tht the zerg couldn’t really answer in time

86

I’d say its an unfair assumption to claim that Arthas can just one-shot anything with this trick, no limitations on who/what this works on or how many times in a given period he can do this. After all, that would make him literally unstoppable and he could just waltz through everything on Azeroth easily as a one-man apocalypse, he’d never have been beaten, which clearly was not the case.

It’s also an unfair assumption that this would work on the Zerg, who are a hive-mind species that share a consciousness from a universe where there are no such things as souls.

But let’s make that unfair assumption, and just accept the assertion that this trick does somehow work on Zerg despite their lack of souls, and that he could do this almost infinitely to hold back the endless tide of Zerg indefinitely. Of course, we’d also have to assume this would only work on enemies he is aware of, because he can only target enemies he knows are there.

All it takes at this point is a Baneling lying in wait for him, or a Mutalisk or Brood Lord showering him from outside vision range, or Ravagers bombarding him with acid from the other side of a ridge, or a drop pod screaming out of the sky to slam him, or any number of other surprise or long-range tactics.

Pretty sure acid magic works differently than basically dumping a barrel of acid on an enemy. Of course a magic ward would stop acid magic. But just splashing someone with acid doesn’t exactly require magic, and so you could easily bypass the ward that way.

Again, I have no doubt Arthas would be able to single-handedly take down countless Zerg, potentially even a few Ultralisks with his magic. However, the Zerg are an endless tide, and nothing lasts forever. There is no way one man, even one as powerful as Arthas was, could beat the Zerg.

Except for Medivh. Maybe. He’d probably be able to catch the Zerg early on in their invasion, while they were still vulnerable, through his scrying and the like.
It’s still highly unlikely he’d be able to stop an all out attack from a Leviathan pack, though.

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87

If I remember how swarm assimilation goes, the zerg can not forcibly convert to the hive mind, you have to given into it willingly, however there is nothing stopping the swarm from mentally torturing their victim until they give in. It was shown in the now deleted, but backed up on reddit, short story the education of PFC Shane. The zerg literally tore his mind conditioning apart and made him relive every terrible thing he did in his life till he joined them.

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Yeah, this is what I meant by “invincible”, not his Armor.
And if I’m not mistaken, the reason he didn’t just trample all of Azeroth was because “the Light” saved them and took away his ability to simply ripo their souls out of their bodies.

When there’s a moment in the fight with the bastard in which he insta-wipes the players’ raid through a scripted event, you know the guy is supposed be a walking apocalypse :stuck_out_tongue:

About sniping him… The guy can literally sense every living thing in Northrend. I know some Zerg have long-ranged attacks, but can they sneak attack him from outside a continent?

Mind you, I still think the Swarm would win, but I think you’re not being fair in your estimations of power levels.

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89

I would imagine Leviathans, Brood Lords, or even Bile Launchers are able to do an attack to the scale of planetary bombardment (I say Leviathans because they have been described as moon-sized and even bigger than Protoss Motherships which can purify planets from orbit, but in actuality idrk, perhaps they will just bombard Arthas with unending supply of chemicals or fungal spores?)

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Yeah. Space. Drop a drop pod on him. Those things are carrying enough force when they hit the ground to leave several-meter deep and wide craters in the ground.

Besides that, the issue was less the sneakiness of the attack and more whether he could retaliate (actually, he’d need to preempt something like a Ravager’s Corrosive Bile) with that oneshot trick that seems to be the only thing standing between Arthas and getting run over by the Zerg like an old car at a monster truck rally.
Which, from all we’ve seen from him before, is unlikely.

I’m not looking to be fair. I’m looking to be accurate.
You want me to be both, I’ll give the Scourge a participation trophy and a pat on the head, saying, “It’s okay, you did your best!”

But that won’t change the fact that the sheer difference of scale between the Zerg and the Scourge, even factoring Arthas in for the Scourge and ignoring the more minor technical advantages the Zerg have, means the Zerg would be nearly unbeatable for the Scourge.

I already laid out the one single chance the Scourge have at beating the Zerg, and it is the exact same as a backwater Terran world that’s too minor to bother sending an eradication fleet or surgically nuking (wow, that felt weird to type, “surgically nuking”).
They’d have to catch the Zerg trying to sneakily set up a hive cluster on the planet early on. If they fail to do that, the Zerg will inevitably overrun the planet. Plain and simple.

Yeah, the Scourge has no answer to anything in orbit, let alone anything as big as Leviathans.

Check the size comparison chart I posted earlier.

I completely forgot to mention the Leviathan’s tentacles. Those can reach down to the surface of a planet from low orbit. They are literally hundreds of miles long, and they’re about as thick as fricking Battlecruisers or Void Rays.

Imagine one of them slamming into Arthas. Yeah, that’s right, let’s just crash a god damn Battlecruiser worth of mass into Arthas every minute or so, that oughta do at least something.

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:astonished:

I thought they (the tentacles) were like the size of a subway car (because of that mission in the Heart of the Swarm campaign where they crash into Jimmy’s prison and basically work like Nydus Worms in space)

Wow… Starcraft in-lore is really dialed up in spectacle, isn’t it? :sweat_smile:

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I would like to direct you back to my comment where I literally explain how and why this is the case

Arthas WAS unstoppable, he was only defeated by a Deus Ex Machina that was made possible by Arthas’ arrogance in letting Thirion live to see his ultimate victory and his own udnerestimating of the light (something that was well established in Arthas’ backstory)

I also explained earlier why this is a reasonable assumption
The zerg don’t behave like insects when they don’t have a queen commanding them, they behave more like mammals when they go feral and since Warcraft mammals do have souls it stands to reason the Zerg do as well

Starcraft isn’t “Without souls” it’s just by the nature of their world it isn’t explained, as a result since there isn’t conflicting information we have to use the Warcraft logic of souls, that’s how it works, unless conflicting information we have to try and put them on the same playing field.

Telepathy of the helmet lets him sense any and all living things, not gonna happen next

Considering that anti magic shells also stop shaman’s magic which is literally throwing lava at people or high pressure water at people, I’m going to actually disagree with it, naturalistic magic is just element manipulation in Warcraft and behaves similar if not identical to the actual element being manipulated.

Considering Arthas has infinite stamina AND lifestealing magic to heal himself (since it’s more then reasonable to give Arthas access to all of the spells used by death knights in game) you have yet to prove why this is the case.

Arthas wins this particular bout for one simple reason, in Versus battle debates the term is Hax, Arthas IS weaker in destructive capacity to Kerrigan, the Zerg ARE more unrelenting and dangerous then the Zerg

But Hax are things that supercede basic durability strength etc, Spirit attacks are very close to the top of the list on things that do this, alongside Time Manipulation and reality warping.

93

Kinda like Malthael worked in D3: he actually had “hax” in the lore that made him untouchable, and the players have to go and get their own hax to couter Malthy and be able to even fight him :laughing:

Come to think of it, Malthael would probably beat Kerrigan in a fight, since she doesn’t have access to the counter-hax… But Arthas migh beat Malthy, since the thing the Nephalem did was just have access to Spirits / the Dead.

Is that a Rock-Paper-Scissors of unbeatable OP characters from each universe?!
(Unless Arthas can beat Kerrigan… I don’t think we’ve agreed on that yet :stuck_out_tongue:)

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94

This debate is very interesting. Could someone tell me exactly what a hax is? and a list that orders the hax with an order of power?

I agree that Kerrigan wins (For long) by the way. She herself has said that she can destroy worlds, and she said it even before absorbing the power of Zurvan and the firstborn pack leaders. Besides Kerrigan does not have a traditional WOW soul.

95

Hax is a kind of power that plays by different rules and thus gives an otherwise much weaker foe a way to fight

The most cited example I’ve seen is time travel, Marty Mcfly from Back to the Future being able to beat someone like DBZ’s Goku or similar by time travelling to when they were a child and killing them before any powers.

Things like that, Hax being like a Hacking of the system

Soul attacks fall into this category quite nicely which Arhtas has in spades,

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96

Very Thanks Melke, youre Nice! UwU.

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That was a Nydus Worm (yeah, Leviathans can deploy them in space), and Nydus Worms are way bigger than that. Remember, in-game sizes don’t actually capture the sheer scale properly because there’s only so many units and so much space to fit them in that a game can render. It’s why you can’t have over 400 Zerglings in an Starcraft match, which is a far cry from the thousands that we see thundering forward during the Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void opening cinematics.

Check that chart I posted above. Nydus Worms are nearly the size of Hatcheries, big enough that Ultralisks can move through.

And the tentacles Leviathans use for attacking are even bigger than that. They’re about as thick as Battlecruisers are tall (along their shortest axis) or Void Rays’ main body.

Of course, Leviathans only every have 2 to 4 of these tentacles, the rest are usually much smaller, such as the Nydus Worm-like tentacle Kerrigan rode onto the prison. Due to their sheer mass, these attacks would be very slow, taking whole minutes for a single tentacle to be rearmed and ready to attack again. Combining this limited number of tentacles

I should also clarify that the Battlecruisers Leviathan tentacles are comparable in size to are some of the older and/or smaller models, the Leviathan (the original version) and Minotaur (the inter-atmospheric combat version) class Battlecruisers. The Behemoth class BCs used in space combat are over 4 times as big as those, and the Gorgons specializing in planetary bombardment are even bigger still.

Yes, to a ridiculous extent.

Like I said, the sheer difference in scale and magnitude is insane, and it’s just too big for the Scourge to handle.

Depends if psionics work on Angels in general. Turning intangible won’t save you from getting your mind fried by a Mind Blast.

That’s way too much of a toss-up for me to actually declare one way or the other, though.

“Hax” = “Hacks”

It’s just a trick that breaks the “game.” Like being able to one-shot people with little or no effort just 'cause, or being immune to basically everything.

If you’re talking about the Heart of the Swarm opening cinematic, where she says, “Worlds will burn,” she isn’t talking about her own personal power alone. She’s talking about the Zerg Swarm’s power, which she commands. Her psionic power isn’t actually enough to destroy a world, Exterminatus or Death Star style, but the Zerg she controls are certainly powerful and numerous enough to overrun any world she sets her sights on.

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It was in the cinematic after her became primal.

99

Found it.

She says, “I feel as if I could rip worlds apart.” That’s less a factual statement of how powerful she is and more of her expressing how much more powerful she feels than she did before.

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100

as much as i am a WoW fan, the zerg win pretty easily. if we assume NO villain died, and if EVERYONE on azeroth ( including every SINGLE player account to EVER exist and ALL forces combined ) stand against ALL the zerg, then we’d be doomed. DW, titan keepers, dragons, old gods, elemental lords, guardians, azhara, galakrond, wild gods, lich king, scourge, alliance, horde, will all be roflstomped. azeroth CAN purify several planets because azeroth actually has her own mass extinction weapon, but as an all in, even if we add the legion to the mix we’d all be dead.

there is one chance though, which is that adventurers have infinite ressurrections. ( u know, spirit healers and all dat garbage ) but i’d say that the zerg will be so far into the infestation that they would simply kill u whenever you rez.

you see, the zerg number in the QUINTILLIONS. and they aren’t any cannon fodder either, because their armor and speed are too much for WoW.
to grasp how MUCH zerg this is, every single multicellular organism that has EVER lived on earth, is a drop in the bucket to that amount. they replenish too fast, they speed-blitz any lvl 120 character to oblivion. it’s just too much.

technically, the largest zerg creature is still deal-able with on azeroth. even multiple of them really. the queen of blades herself is pretty eh too on azeroth. ( she is hell powerful but we have a guardian ). i’d even go as far to say that , and dont quote me on this, that we can also deal with primal kerrigan too without all the villains and allies combined, and with just our adventurers. in terms of power azeroth is pretty ahead of the zerg, ( a titan can grab all the zerg in one pile and yeet them out of existence ) but in numbers its a stomp.

so far, adventurers ( who number in the millions ) have defeated several deities. they are going to the plane of death too. after several expansions and new powerhouses to be introduced i think azeroth can somehow make the cut as a fourth race. ( given we can cheat death )

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You are an author, though, of your own comments (and hypothetical scenarios) :stuck_out_tongue: Is the same in the end, you will root for and “demonstrate” how X side should win based on fictional “facts”, but that’s only 'cause you want it to be so.

Nothing wrong doing so, don’t get me wrong, is all fun, and I like it. I’m not saying you shouldn’t, but I’m just answering OP’s actual question “who would win”, and the only actual real answer is “the side you want”.