I was think what make Hots be Hots and what turns him so different from the other Mobas. Besides the maps and the objectives that you do, we can say that the line of construct a build towards the talents is an unique mechanic about this game. In my opinion is a good concept, totally different from the other mobas and is what drags me for this game whenever I want to play a different moba that holds elements that flee from the usual.
But in the end of the day, why do you play HotS? It’s because of the mechanic? Or It’s because that you like to play with the Blizzard’s characters? Well, I play Hots because of the second option.
Here is what I want to say. When I play with a certain character, I am obrigated to play with this character’s specific role. So why you, instead of change the game mechanic (obviously that no one want this), you give a second option to play with a certain character based on what abilities the character himself shows in his own lore?
Example: I like to play Anduin but I am a guy that likes to play with bruisers. Well, recently in his lore, he shows some traits that can turns him in a potential bruiser that manipulates Domination Magic. So why dont give him a second option of gameplay? It’s not a better option, just a alternative option that you can choose before you start a match and that counts like if you are choosing the Anduin totally. Wich means that someone after you couldn’t choose his support option to play alongside you for example . In my opinion, this perspective would refresh and even help the way that the talent mechanic works. Would give you more paths.
Sure, there is some negative traits about this. Not all Heroes can provides more than one way to play with them. Give the same exact hero a new path of gameplay, could potentialy be interpretated that the staff are out of content. Plus, the fact that maybe this would not be health for the game at all. There is some negative traits about this but in general I think that is a good idea to provides more paths. What you guys think?
Sorry for the bad english. It’s not my first language and I am not using the google translate to give me some help.
The problem with that is in QM, it tries to match roles between the two teams. This would not work if any hero could play multiple roles. In addition, let’s say you wanted to play Anduin as a bruiser, but your team has no other healer, and the enemy team does. Does this mean you will play him as a bruiser anyway, dooming your team to fall behind due to a lack of healing.
While it is true that tanks and healers aren’t absolutely necessary, it can definitely make a difference in a team’s morale. Just look at all the hatred people who insist on picking Twinblades on Varian get!
While I wouldn’t mind seeing more build variety to allow more flexibility in how you play a hero, I do think being able to role swap easily could cause more problems than it solves.
Well, you are right. But they could remade the QM system for this, separating in holes instead of a specific character. You would select a role, then a character that you want to pick.
Example: If I want to play Anduin Bruiser, I obviously would to select first the bruiser role and then this version of him. This is will not “erase” the support functionality that It’s usually required for the team.
Kits like that [for example: Anduin either Healer or Bruiser]:
creates confusion, it’s harder to learn what the enemy is capable of, the battle is harder to read.
takes away kits from other potential Heroes, making new Hero creation harder, increases the chance of redundancy
breaks QM so now we created a new problem just so we can play a few specific iterations
is pretty unfair, because only a few Heroes have options like that and others would feel left out
creates a new type of complain when ppl ask for their single-role characters to receive a new role-version (basically every Hero will be asked to be either a Bruiser or a R.Assassin)
This is imo a really bad idea. You enjoy LichPrince Manduin? Play Arthas or Varian. The feels are already in the game, just not for your choice of Hero, but that’s how these should be, a single character can’t have too much coverage.
I guess what the poster wants is more like a new hero with the name and skins of Anduin in his example. Said differently, it would be Anduin with two sets of abilities that you select at the same time you select the hero. It would not be as Varian, where he can select his role during the game, here the selection of the role would be before the game starts. This does not create more difficulty for QM but it can create other problems such as complaints that another hero does not have this option. The game would also be more difficult to learn but it is the same difficulty than adding a new hero actually; with an additional difficulty though due to possible confusion.
Edit: I can see a benefit to this appraoch rather than creating a new hero. You don’t need to create all the associated graphics and need less work to be done to add a “new” hero (well, at least I think since I don’t know how a hero is done).
It doesn’t matter that it’s via talents (highlighted in title) or as a separate Hero, functionality-wise it’s the same. It’s abilities could be used for a non-Anduin Hero.
Easy readability, visibility, silhouettes are big concern of the game’s design from day one. How to handle Heroes with the same weapon [Shalamayne], race, similar posture, similar weapon of choice and so on.
The reason Anduin doesn’t use his sword for AAs a d stuff is to help him distinguish from his father.
The reason why Widowmaker is super low (close to never) possibility as a Hero and was given to Nova as a skin was because they were too similar.
The reason why Alex is thicc is to help her be far from Sylvanas (who looks like her in WoW, considering they share the same model).
If someone plays the game they need to be able to quickly read what’s going on.
The Lich Prince (the DeathKnight looking Bruiser Anduin) would be misjudged to be either an Anduin, an Arthas or a Varian skin, because they look the same, Anduin because it’s the same character, Arthas because Anduin’s new visuals look like Arthas and Varian because “hey, that sword is Varian’s”.
It’s the same as a new Hero. New abilities, new talents, new models, new animations. But it’s not a new Hero. So it takes as much time, money and energy as a completely new Hero except it doesn’t feel like a new Hero at all.
I don’t understand how you can say that functionally Varian is the same as selecting another hero, especially for QM. The problem with Varian in QM is that he can choose his role during the game. Selecting a hero with a predefined role, i.e. before the game starts, is not the same at all. I don’t think that other heroes with specified role creates as much problem as Varian for QM matchmaking.
I get the idea that the poster could eventually have thought about a “new” hero in “disguise” from the above quote. But it can be an expression issue since the poster said he wasn’t fluent in English.
For the confusion part, this actually depends on how it is implemented. It is not something you can say per se, but you may be right as I also stated.
Finally, for the amount of work needed I was thinking about the model indeed. For the abilities/talents, it is the same as a new hero. This amount of work needed depends on how the model is done, which I have no idea of. The model in game are 2D model it seems. But let’s say they actually starts with a 3D model and that the 2D models are only “screen shots” of this 3D model from several angles, then the amount of work is not the same than creating a brand new model. Actually, starting from a 3D model could be less work than directly doing the model for all the possible angles of the 2D model. But again, I don’t know how it is performed. This is just how I can imagine stuff could be working.
Because I’m not talking about QM, but putting way too many resources into a single Hero.
Does it matter thar Anduin1 and Anduin2 are not the same Hero as Varian when you had two Heroes combined into one Hero instead of having two Heroes?
Does it matter that it’s not Healer Anduin but Bruiser Anduin when ppl will just see “that’s Anduin”?
Does it matter that you pick Anduin and play him either as a Healer or as a Bruiser, or you select the role and pick the Anduin you wanted?
In the end, your enemies face Anduin no matter what, and you killed a potential new Hero so your fav can fill for more Roles.
Multiclass Heroes were not ditched due to QM. It was ditched because it was not worth to put that much into a single Hero design-wise. QM problems are like bonus counterpoints, not the main reason.
If someone want DK Anduin, ask for a cool Arthas skin.
If they want a new Hero, ask for a new Hero.
But asking for a New Hero to be just some extra part of an existing Hero is not good on any lvl (except pleasing the Anduin fans over everyone else).
Functionally, Anduin1 and Anduin2 would be practically the same as 2 different heroes, except for draft if you consider that you can only draft one of the two Anduin. It seems what it is suggested by the poster by the way.
One of the reason that Ragnaros skin are so rare is because it “costs” a lot to do. Considering the current situation of the dev team, cutting “costs” can be beneficial. Of course, putting effort in one hero has disadvantages but it also has advantage – if it indeed has less “costs”. It is a matter of perspective and trade-off.
But the problem is, that you gained none.
That’s my point. You linked two Heroes, two kits with the character Anduin. So now Anduin takes the place of the Holy Priest and the Death Knight, making it harder to add other, wanted Holy Priests and DKs Heroes. Because the thing that could make them unique are part of Anduin. Two Anduins!
And now if you see Anduin, you can’t know if it’s the Healer or the Bruiser one at first glance, because they both have the same face and voice and body.
Or that it’s DK Anduin or Arthas, because they look too similar in aesthetics.
Or if it’s Varian or Anduin because the shared artifact [Shalamayne].
But Anduin still needs new animations, a new model and new visuals for the Bruiser kit, you wouldn’t cut costs.
It’s not cheaper regarding money.
Just because you have Anduin in game already doesn’t mean that creating another Anduin is cheaper.
It’s only cheaper in hype, because you get nothing, but a glorified Rework.
Creating more harm [confusion] than good.
I’m sorry, I’m all for hybrid heroes and talent diversity but giving a Hero outright a new role (not spec build, but an entirely new class) is not a very good idea.
Like Karabars have said, it’s a huge resource dump that amounts to very little. You don’t get a new hero even though the hero will feel like a new hero entirely. And then you have to tinker with the QM matchmaking on top of that.
A hybrid character of a hero should be their identity (e.g. Kharazim is a Healer who contribute damage to balance out his lower base healing, Uther who provides CC and front line health to substitute a tank, or Zarya who can protect her allies and become a secondary RA). It shouldn’t be an entirely separate choice of that hero, because that would be unfair.
Unfair in the sense that why only these heroes get to have that much class flexibility on top of being unfair to play against.
Another point I want to emphasize is that if a hero can do everything, then why bother making a new hero? Heroes with multiple roles can work better in games like League because for the majority of the game you’re basically playing solo. But in HotS where it’s more team oriented, this creates more redundancy than need be. Redundancy is nice, but when every hero has redundant kit, it kinda takes away from the whole “team game” Aspect of it since you can do a bunch of things by yourself without your team.
Well, the Anduin Bruiser thing was just an example. I particulary dont care about him and I think that his actual phase It’s just temporary. It was a poor example too, I’m sorry. But I think that an alternative role for the same hero still could work without destroy a possible new completly hero If you considerer what he shows in the lore, his abilities.
DK Anduin was a poor example but the mentality for the hero Itself still could work. If not a bruiser, maybe a mage considering his potential trait for the possibility on be a Shadow Priest in the lore lately. Anduin and Whitemane are Priests. Of course that there is the question of mechanic but both shares the same role in Hero of the Storm without being a repetitive character. And why they could be a repetitive character since they are clearly two different characters? Because both shares the same job and the same source of power in lore, the Light. So, in the end of the day, all depends in how the character himself manipulates the source of power based in what he shows in the lore. I still could create an new Anduin with an offensive style, a Shadow Priest without destroy a potential future character that manipulates the same source of power, Alleria for example, that manipulates the Void as a source of power too.
The negative traits Its the fact that not all character would have this possibility and could generates a repititive and tiresome content. I agree that It’s not fair with the universes that have characters that cannot have this possibility. And for this argument, I dont have an answer.
Well, I admit that even in my native language I have difficults to express myself, what I’m really thinking. And do this in another language It’s even more hard. My garbage english dont helps me either. I usually use myself as an example to explain something whenever I am writing in another language. It’s a bad quality of mine, sorry about that. But It’s more easy for me to do this whenever I want to give and explain my example.
For starters,
Anduin is Holy Priest.
Whitemane is Disc(ipline) Priest.
Second,
They don’t share a similar silhouette.
Anduin is male, has no weapon in hand, has sword on back.
Whitemane is female, uses staff.
A Shadow Priest (3rd WoW Priest spec) could happen, but why use a Hero already existing instead of getting a new Hero that is The Shadow Priest?
Then we wouldn’t see a Shadow Priest.
And this still begs the question, why have the same Hero twice? It serves no purpose other than “now I can enjoy another role with my fav character”, but Heroes are not supposed to be a coverage for many roles. MOBAs are not the genre for that.
Ppl need to know what they face (one of the reason why Varian changes in appearence once he picked his Heroic, according to which he picked). That’s extra work and the Hero is still the same, just 1 different Ability, no imagine it with 3+ different abilities…
Imo, your idea [this exact] has no place here. Sorry.