Malthael too weak (full 1v1 list)

General Discussion
1

Edit: please before reading and commenting anything, know that i have changed my mind about malthael, and malthael just has a high skill cap that i havent reached enough yet, but after him till level 59, i realised that malthael is actually all good, i think he still needs very very slight changes to his numbers, and memento mori (or just trait build itself) needs a buff.

Malthael was a melee assassin, and then turned into a bruiser
since then ive been playing Malthael and im gonna say that he has been VERY weak from that time
there has been no nerfs and there was even a new buff recently, so whats the matter?

WELL, BLIZZARD HAS BEEN BUFFING EVERYONE SO MUCH THAT MALTHAEL IS SO WEAK NOW

he is supposed to be a 1v1 master, and a good solo laner so well lets talk about the 1v1 master thingey

this is a list of heroes that he can 1v1 and cant (if the player he is against is level 400)

----> SCROLL DOWN FOR SUM UP <----

TANKS:
Anubā€™arak: yes
Arthas: no
Blaze: no
Choā€™Gall: untill level 17 no
Diablo: yes
E.T.C.: no
Mei: yes (close)
Malā€™Ganis: no
Garrosh: no
Johanna: no
Muradin: no
Tyrael: no
Stitches: no

BRUISERS:
Hogger: no
Deathwing: untill level 17 no
Imperius: no
Yrel: no
D.Va: no
Ragnaros: no
Varian: no
Dehaka: no
Xul: no
Artanis: no
Rexxar: no
Leoric: no
Thrall: no
Chen: no (close)
Sonya: no
Gazlowe: no

SUPPORT:
Zarya: no
The Lost Vikings: no
Abathur (symbiot on a locust): yes (close)
Medivh: no

HEALER:
Anduin: yes
Whitemane: yes
Deckard: no
Alexstrasza: no
Ana: no
Stukov: yes
Lucio: no
Lt. Morales: yes
Auriel: no
Kharazim: no
Rehgar: no
Brightwing: yes
Li Li: no
Malfurion: no
Tyrande: no
Uther: no

RANGED ASSASSIN:

all of them are no, literally all of them so i wont write them

MELEE ASSASSIN:
Alarak: no
Butcher: no
Illidan: no
Kerrigan: no
Maiev: no
Murky: yes
Qhira: no
Samuro: no
Valeera: no

TIME FOR SUM UP:

tanks: out of 13 tanks, he can 1v1 3 of them

bruisers: out of 16 bruisers, he can 1v1 NONE of them

support: out of 4 support, he can 1v1 1 of them

healers: out of 16 healers, he can 1v1 5 of them

ranged assassins: out of 30 ranged assassins, he can 1v1 NONE of them

melee assassins: out of 10 melee assassins he can 1v1 1 of them

out of 70 heroes, he can 1v1 10 of them, which:
3 is tank
1 is support
5 is healer
1 is melee assassin

i am a level 48 Malthael that plays Malthael since it was released, if that doesnt deserve a buff idk what does, so PLEASE FOR GODS SAKE BUFF HIM

i would love to hear from other players, so please comment your idea about this and also please like this so more people can see this =)

EDIT: note that malthael, murky, and leoric are supposed to be different, and without malthael having the 1v1 advantage, i dont think they would make ANY difference, literally. and also the list i made is without considering minions and ultimates. and the list is only 90% correct, some of the data might be incorrect so excuse me please!

5 Likes
2

The creation of sustain tanks would buff malthael

3

Your list is bad, maybe you should watch others play Malthael.

(Lvl 49 Malthael, 60% wr.)

12 Likes
4

Sounds like your bad with that hero if you cant 1v1 a lot of them

Are you facetanking?
Seriously how cant you beat dehaka and yrell as malthael? The fact that you listed uther and auriel you cant beat in a 1v1 says I cant take you serious
You need to gid gut before putting effort in making lists

5 Likes
5

Why does Auriel wants to die alone? And how did you loose against her?

1 Like
6

Sustain would hinder malthael just as much, since it will take him more time to take out a target.
I would say armor oriented tanks are much more vulnerable because of their %dps weakness.

Actualy, its more like a 1v2 or more master. Malthael benefits from more enemies around him for his sustain. And far less oriented for 1v1 fights (and if you do, you ensure minions are around the target).

And malthael has a very powerful burst of damage late in the game. His W can take a big portion of someones health bar. And is spammable enough to generaly get multiple hits during a single engagement.

If last rites has 5 stacks at 20 he can potentialy dish out a lot of damage each 15 seconds. Which makes any target that isnt a full health at risk already, and this brings him even more sustain.

Sure, its a bruiser that has to be played more like an assassin, but he does his bruiser job fine. Its however a hero that although it looks simple, is a bit more complex. Its not a brawling hero on that, but that was never its design.

1 Like
7

If you are looking for straight up duelist then play one? Malthaels biggest strength is dual soak which very few solo laners match in speed and jungling. You wear down a lot of heroes you listed slowly in hp or mana and then fight. You can hit them with E for small poke or mount with your 150% speed, hit them + level 4 Q and teleport out with E on minion + W. But you are correct, if you are terrible Malth that just tries to face tank everything and has no idea how to play the hero he does lose a lot of solo lane match ups.

4 Likes
8

On Artanis, I can win a duel with Malthael, but I will never win a lane. If it is a three lane map and his team is staying as a 4 man in one lane while he dual soaks, I have no chance of ever keeping up with him. Malthael is also good at taking camps, so he is a very well-rounded and challenging lane opponent for most bruisers.

A good hero design isnā€™t just about a 1v1.

5 Likes
9

Somethingā€™s not right here. You have him losing against every bruiser, which just isnā€™t possible. How are you losing to Ragnaros and Dehaka? (Dehaka doesnā€™t beat anyone in the solo lane)

Also, iā€™ve never lost the solo to hogger or Gazlowe.

Plus, Malthael always wins against Yrel. That data is messed up.

I do agree that he needs some changes. His lack of siege is a real problem now that structures focus heroes. Because he just has nothing to do while his team pushes a structure. But those statements arenā€™t realistic.

Very disagree. Malthael can take camps, but heā€™s not a good at it. It takes him forever to grab camps (and since his trait doesnā€™t scale, you donā€™t get much better as the game goes on), he loses all his mana and his health doing it. So if you see Malthael leave his lane for a while, you can pretty much always steal his camp from him.

AO Artanis will take a siege camp without losing much mana or health, and will be done in time to soak his next minion wave. (And he can defend it if someone shows up)

If youā€™re playing Malthael in the solo, you can only leave to grab camps if your opponents are amateurs.

5 Likes
10

Lol all these people defending Malthael current state, lmao he is trash my dudes, I can easily toy with him when I am playing Dehaka,Ragnaros and even Thrall. Trait build is a joke at least they buffed his E at one point but just to be safe just go Q build all the way

11

What.

For real though, go unstoppable at 13, go W build, destroy people in teamfights. Massacre and Mortality combo with each other!

Q build is not as good as people think.

12

Heā€™s in a good spot.

In QM, where healers and tanks are a scarce resource while triple ranged assassins comp are at 31% popularity, heā€™ll definitely struggle. It also doesnā€™t help his win rate for being a hard hero to master.

In patch 2.51, high elo SL, mastered heroes, he looked good. 2.25% win rate over the average bruiser.
Patch 2.52 came with Gazlowe and D.Va rework. He looked fine, but only 0.5% win rate over.
Then, patch 2.53 disaster came with Hogger and buffed Sonya, resulting a 2% win rate under the average bruiser.

Heā€™s not a terrible pick, but you need lots of experience on him and know good matchups. And, itā€™s not only about the 1v1.

1 Like
13

Malthael actually has been nerfed a lot since he was released, also you should be able to the vast majority of those melee bruisers/tanks you listed just gotta kite in wave more, also malthaels strength is from his ult (last rites), and his wave clear/double soaking/roaming potential with pale horse at 1

3 Likes
15

And I can toy with those Heroes and with many more as Malthael.
Itā€™s also worth mentioning where. For example I do it at Masterā€™s rank. You?

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well tbh i havent played against some of the heroes for some time but as long as i remember i couldnt take out dehaka and yrel in a straightup 1v1 fight, maybe im wrong
but im 100% cant 1v1 uther, he has too low health for my % damage to barely scratch him, as he heals himself so much (and he stuns)
and auriel also the same thing, too low health, way too much healing
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malthaels % damage does nothing compared to her healing
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well thats true and not true at the same time, since if he cant 1v1, i dont think he can 1v2 better
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this list was considered without using any ultimates
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he does his bruiser job more than fine, he does a good job at clearing camps, and an amazing job at clearing waves, but even murky can do that, my problem is that he is also supposes to fight heroes really good, but he actually cant
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works great on paper, never actually works
reason: stuns, pulls, enemy heals, ranged attacks and abilities
these make thing almost impossible for this to work, because we take more damage than we can poke
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i completely agree, but well i was talking about the straightup 1v1, because what difference does malthael have with murky if he cant win straight up battles?
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yes that data is partly messed up, i havent played against some of the heroes for some time, but the list is 90% accurate
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this is completely true, 100%. but i didnt really complain, its okay with me that he cant do camps very effectively, because most heroes cant solo camps anyways.
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i used to go all Q build untill they buffed the E ability, i usually go with E and W now to easily teleport and catch low health players and also easily run away, but non the less, still get trashed by a lot of heroes even when they have low hp
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works in team fights, but not really a valid choice when the meta in heroes is mostly ranged assassins and you just die before you even get to damage anyone, since noone plays tanks anymore
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whats u r saying rn is that he isnt good in QM. and all im saying is everyone have been buffed, BUT malthael, so he is for sure worse than most heroes, leoric is just a way better choice, easy wave clear, % heal and easy teleport back/ forth. yet more hp than malthael.
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yes but even with healing from minions, still would lose most of the matchups, and vs ranged, last rites doesnt work because u dont even get to damage them
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hahahahaha exactly
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i dont believe you, because ive lost so many fights that what you said just seems like a joke to me
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2 Likes
17

A kinda old pic with my success as Malthael.

But nothing really changed (recent game):

3 Likes
18

only thing i donā€™t think is strong with malth is his trait build. they could tweak is lvl trait talent cut down on the time needed, and give the reward as + trait dam instead of time added. maybe fix that one talent that makes u have delayed spell armor i donā€™t think anyone takes that:D

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I personally like both the Trait Build and I often pick the delayed Spell Armor.

20

His damage is delivered in a staggered way, if he can target more enemies, that means more staggered damage is going to be delivered. Which increases his damage output significantly. At the same time, each hero also makes his Q a lot more effective at healing. His W allows him to dodge attacks better.

And in that situation, he is very likely going to deal significantly more damage compared to a 1v1

Short cooldown ultimates are often required to be considered as being part of the kit. And long cooldown ultimates on that can still be considered for single use. As after all, these ultis define what the hero often is going to do.

Malthael is ment to attack a large group at once in order to optimize damage, and self sustain. And sure, he cant go 1v5 (and practicaly might not even handle a 1v2 that easily), but thats still not the way you are going to use his killing capabilities anyway. If its a 1v1 or 1v2, its generaly more about laning, and he does fine on that.

But if its a teamfight (lets say a 3v3), he already easily can double his total damage output compared to what is possible in a 1v1. And in a 5v5 it might even be triple the output.

But malthael on that is a niche hero anyway. If there are not enough frontliners to stick to, he is simply not going to be able to use his cleaving AA a lot. And this is why its often considered an anti-double-tank-meta-hero (similar to tychus).

Note that to win a fight, you dont always need to kill the enemies. It helps if you do, but as long as the enemy can no longer go in, you essentialy secured the region for your team. Which for objectives can be important.

But in the end, this is what differs a good from a bad malthael, the good malthael knows when he can and should engage. And knows when to hold back. While the bad malthael just damages himself more than the enemy and then ends up losing the lane with it because he has to hearth for health.

1 Like
21

I lold hard. Too funny.

On topic though, you canā€™t really win duels with him if you go head on and start smacking. Minion wave is your win condition. Good jukes with Q, kiting, and weaving in autos and then going for full smack.

3 Likes