This is an SL game in Bronze 2/3 that I won so no one to blame for a loss XD. That was a stomp due to micro management difference but there are still some moments I have no idea what a play could be. I swear no more macro questions for some times after these ones.
a) Here I tried to kill Varian (missed my jet propulsion though and he backed with a sliver of life). Should I have just ignored him and go mid?
b) Here we went for top boss then objective. Shouldn’t we just start the objective?
c) We contested the boss. I have no better idea but at the same time it is a fight we can still loose and a lot. Maybe take bot boss and push to the core with it, two keeps down already?
By the way, if we went for bot boss and this boss is left undefended, and since bot lane was already open, does the boss end the game alone?
d) It ended by the boss being capped by the enemy but 3 of them died (Tassadar survives). We defended the boss and then objective. Shouldn’t we just end there? Or at least, 3 to defend the boss and 1 (me I guess) starting the objective?
a) Forcing him to retreat makes them either lose XP or force a rotation, either way it’s an advantage. Also noting Aba’s position, he was either bullied out the lane or misguided, either way, your presence is a non-issue. Kael should be more than fine with padding mid.
b) Risky, but if you can take it quick, or force a fight that you win (especially with the level advantage), then it’s a check-mate. They either ignore the boss or the objective. Opening with bottom boss would have been even juicier. I’m not sure about your composition, however, so I wouldn’t have made that call.
c) Both options are fine. Bottom boss is the faster, more aggressive option. Then again, if you win top boss, you can still go for the bottom. Downside: enemy will be right there to defend. The worst option would be to fiddle around and eat both bosses.
d) I would have pushed for sure, one person can handle the objective. Late objectives are so long, they all respawn and between Tassadar, Lunara and Varian, likely defend.
B) on this map you can’t really get the obj and leave it, you need to guard it, but the enemy was only 20 sec from respawn, which 1 man down can mean they might be able to contest boss, or kill the ally at obj and get the obj.
On the other hand, if a boss is actively pushing, and you have obj, and there as 5, they either split and can’t really contest to def boss, risking a wipe as well, or they ignore boss, that is value for you. It’s a win-win for you, but without boss, they can 5v5 you without your team getting “passive” value.
C) it might end the game alone, that boss is not strong but still a boss.
I think two both is overkill. And if you win a fight at boss and wipe, ditching boss and going core is better.
D) just end, boss is weak, obj is slow. Gives them time to recover.
A - If you W him first you should be able to E stun him and kill. Next minion wave is right at the gates, so kill + getting all the exp pushed in = small advantage in exp for your team and small siege damage.
But even if you don’t kill him there and he lives with almost no hp, you can still just force him to fully back and lose some exp. Nothing to do on the map so just stay there.
B - You guys don’t have someone who can really melt the boss, so it’s better to have everyone there. Plus you guys don’t have a dedicated solo laner who can survive on the objective in case uther + lunara gank.
C - Contesting will be a 50/50 fight, but if you guys lose you don’t lose the game. The core mechanic won’t allow enemy team to kill it, but they can definitely get top keep and maybe more structures depending on how many people from your team dies.
If your team is insecure, you guys can literally just give top boss and easily defend (you still have top fort). They wouldn’t get keep, maybe not even front keep wall. Just defend and let aba push, if someone backs you guys can 5 v 4 them.
Also, it’s hard to say if the bot boss would end, cause the bosses are not that powerful in this map. If it had a big minion wave + aba pushing, probably would end.
D - You guys don’t have big AA heroes, so killing the core (still has 20 armor) is kinda hard. Best thing would be to leave aba to kill boss while 1 grabs objective and the other 3 siege mid, you guys have a camp there already pushing.
You had an advantage in every situation and you could have comfortably maintained the lead for the rest of the match by doing two things instead of only one.
As for the boss around 18:02 you should have simply let them have it, would be entirely dumb of your team to risk the game when you have 2 forts inside of a lane where they have none. Generally you already control the map with azmo and abathur.
Interesting. Quite the various perspectives. I’ll need some time to process your answers. But I have some questions for understanding:
@Aphandra why taking boss first in b) is risky?
@Karabars where do I get some value on the map in a) and
not sure to understand what you mean.
Next time I do this, I’ll do it on a stomp loss .
No need, it’s a free internet. You can post as many as you want.
1 comment and a question.
Always throw oil spill before trying to stun someone (( if you didn’t)
Why do you feel you need to go mid? There’s no one else to soak bot lane.
No, that’s acceptable because three of your enemies are dead. Since they’ll have to defend the boss, you’ll get the objective all to yourself for a while, and it pretty much guarantees you win it.
Well, assuming you can convince your team, I would probably push mid to destroy the keep, then defend the boss. They get your fort, you get their keep. That’s a trade you should always take. Then you can hearth and defend what’s left of the boss. or if they decide to go for bot boss, you win since you’ll destroy their core before they can even reach yours.
If they don’t, it’s easy to defend your keep since the boss has a fort to go through first. And while you’re defending, you may win through winions bot or mid.
On Alterac, it’s a bit different because the core regenerates. So if they defend it without you pushing with it, their core will go back to 100% They will have gotten at least your top fort, but you wont have gained anything.
In theory you could have just ended since there’s no way Tass+ Uther can stop you. But in Bronze it’s hard to get people to end, and the objective wins since it’s late game and they’re missing two keeps. So victory is more or less guaranteed either way. As long as everyone does the same thing.
I also like these topics, no need to stop. Gives perspective, love reading answers.
Not sure by now. I may have been confused by team colors and mixed up B and C.
Something along the lines of your team not having boss melt potential, and the possibility of an invade (short death timers), which has a tendency to go wrong. 4v5. Except you are the one with Kael and Azmo, the former easily punishing captures with ignite and the two area spells.
So, I’m not going to edit that post but scratch that.
What’s kind of curious is how between B and C your XP advantage disappeared.
I didn’t throw oil first. It is quite inconsistent, sometimes I do, sometimes no;
mid lane was pressured. I thought I had time to go there and go back to bot lane without loosing soak.
@Aphandra by the time we took top boss and the objective, they respawned, took their camp (not sure, need to check that) and bot boss. We went to defend bot, but in the meantime, Tassadar already defended mid so we pushed bot lane. But we backed too late, were caught in our retreat and were wiped. At that point, they were half a level behind. The remaining half was due to missed soaking when two of us were dead some times later and the soak was quite far away from our fort.
And special camps time: when they wiped us, they went for our camp and then their camp. Only Tassadar focused our structure and he destroyed our bot fort.
A ) Q towers on CD, don’t use any other abilities. AA Varian. Your team has enough wave clear mid and you have zero kill pressure, so don’t go mid unless you take the camp at lvl 4 with Incinerator Gauntlets.
B ) Your team starts the obj. You take the camp then start the boss. The rest of your team will join you. If the enemy wants to contest anything, just regroup to the boss and crush them with a talent tier up.
C ) You can’t start bot boss at your positioning. Distract them safely and play around Anduin’s Pull. Don’t contest unless they’re low due to not having a proper healer. Bot boss doesn’t end.
D ) You end there if Monstro Z is up and tries to dismount Tass.
a) Most of you think that I should stay bot and start sieging. Reasons:
Varian should have logically earth back;
no help needed mid.
What about trying to double soak and letting KT and Anduin do the camp?
What do you mean? He didn’t take HKQ at level 1.
b) Most of you think that we have time to take the boss uncontested. Well is this the reason for taking boss being OK? Or maybe is it because we are 2 levels ahead? So yeah, in this case it is OK to do so. The alternative of lucifer is interesting also, at least I think.
c) give the boss and defend it: I don’t think it is an interesting scenario. This basically means top fort wall down wihtout any benefit for us. That’s not a problem. But after that, we still need to go for some team fight/contesting objective or whatever. Contesting in my book is better than giving the boss since they, at least, have the aggro of the boss.
I guess bot boss wouldn’t end if left undefended. So yeah, not a good idea to go bot boss then.
I may have been able to convince this team to do that, well if I had thought of that XD. But how do you do that? I mean: if we leave the boss to push mid keep, we loose vision on boss and on where they are. They could earth to defend, catch us mounted while we are unmounted, and with me being targetted by the keep. The same for the scenario of them going bot boss after that. How do we know they are going for bot boss and then push core?
d) Seems mixed point of view here about ending or taking objective. Hum… I guess here the safest would be taking the objective since we won most of the team fights. What happened is:
we start objective after defending top boss;
they drive us away from the objective and our Anduin dies → 4v5;
they start their objective. Their Uther, their Varian and our Azmodan die → 3v3;
they stay and they all die;
we get objective and end.
I guess you mean splitting then. Doesn’t it make for easy ganks and loosing our advantage slowly?
Edit: I shall put that bible on my bedside table and read it every night.
You have an Abathur on your team. It’s not safe to double soak freely if the 3 man turns on you. KT and Anduin are busy depushing mid and I assume they’ll soon be able to hit towers with Lunara if she isn’t on the camp dying alone. A mine on their camp would be great if she isn’t mid. KT and Anduin are inefficient at doing the camp and it doesn’t bring as much value as defending your wall.
The verb, not the noun. Hit him.
There is a benefit: Low risk while ahead in macro and still applying pressure passively and with Abathur. Even without top keep on my side, I wouldn’t contest. The core mechanic is strong enough.
That’s not the problem. You’re nowhere near it and the enemy team will have time to contest it without even your team bringing it down half hp.
I am a little bit of lost here. I get why Darak says it would be the best to double soak but I don’t get what you are saying lucifer. Why wouldn’t it be safe to double soak with an Abathur in our team? I would say that it is quite safe since he can be wherever he wants instantly.
I guess you could, if they agree. But trying to convince people to stop fighting mid to do something actually useful is like herding cats. So more than likely they will stay mid, and you’ll have to stay bot.
In a game of solo players, especially at lower levels. Once a team starts a boss, they usually won’t stop for anything. Since you have Azmodan, you can kill that keep pretty quickly, you don’t even need a minion wave.
If they go for bot boss, you get to free clear top then defend bot. I don’t think they get any value on that.
I think it’s pretty safe to double soak at that level. They can’t really kill you with Joh + Uther + Lunara. You even have an aba to help you just in case. And if you see them coming you can easily oil their path and E away.
Abathur can save you from a 2v1, not from a potential 4v1 if the 3 man mid turns on you while you go bot. Varian with taunt will intercept your escape.
Just a reminder that anything goes in bronze and my advices are better toward master players.
You don’t need to rely on double soaking much. You’re the tank and you have an Abathur.
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