Kith's Varian Review + Rework

General Discussion
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The issue is that there isn’t any way to give Varian a stun that isn’t tied to some form of point-and-click. Even if it was a skillshot, you can still get into range with Charge and then force someone to stand still with Taunt, making the skillshot effectively a point-and-click by extension because… well, they’re standing still.

The other tanks are tolerable because their stuns are skillshots (with the exception being Diablo’s Overpower, which is incredibly short-range) and the player has the opportunity to dodge them. Even in the case of chained stuns, the player has to get hit by one first.

Smash and Twin Blades’ periodic short stuns weren’t the issue (although they were strong), the issue was the total lockdown that Taunt and Warbringer gave when combined. Because of Taunt itself, there’s almost no way to add in any additional hard CC without making Tank Varian completely insufferable again.

As for Talents that alter based on the previous build choices you’ve made, I’m actually a huge fan of that concept and designed my entire Xul rework around it.

They wouldn’t stack, but the banner wouldn’t become useless by any stretch of the imagination. Intercept grants Physical Armor, whereas the Banner of Ironforge grants Standard Armor. Combining the two would basically be giving players 50 Physical Armor and 20 Spell Armor while benefiting from Intercept and 20 Armor otherwise.

The point of Intercept is to provide armor to your allies, not Varian, so that wouldn’t fill the role very well.

As I said above, it’s very difficult to make that happen in an organic way that doesn’t tie into a point-and-click mechanic somehow. The best I could offer is maybe extending the duration of Taunt itself, but that’s pretty dangerous.

Not many heroes require that, no, but that’s how fulfilling a niche goes. Varian is one of the few that can fill that niche, but it comes at the cost of being able to do other jobs as effectively as his peers.

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For those interested, the following changes have been made to the Rework:

  • Enrage’s -20 Armor has been replaced by -2% Maximum Health per second
  • Vigilance also increases Taunt’s duration by 20%
1 Like
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I like that you made a change to Taunt :yellow_heart: but I’m afraid this would only really make tank Varian stronger in the existing niche without helping much outside.

So I have got the idea to move Demoralizing shout to level 10 after someone mentioned that it is pretty much a second ulti, it could also make the level 10 choices more interesting.

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I am incredibly comfortable with that. As I said in a previous post:

I don’t think that Tank Varian needs any more CC than he already has. He’s got two slows, one of which is ranged and the other which is so strong it might as well be a root, and a point-and-click disable that might as well be a stun outside of a very small amount of edge cases. For a Bruiser, that’s pretty good, and it’s good enough for him to operate as a main Tank under the right circumstances.

In my opinion, if you want a more effective Tank that can counter a broader set of opponents, then you should be picking an actual dedicated Tank. Varian’s strength is that he can flex in so many different directions instead of being locked into a single role, so making him even more effective than he already is would be giving him too much.

The Rework’s Level 10 is supposed to be a very soft power spike, and being able to cut the enemy’s damage output - whether you’re tanking, diving, or dueling - is way too strong of a concept for that purpose. It would have to be drastically nerfed; any Damage Reduction above 5% would be a default slam-pick regardless of your build (and “default pick regardless of build” is what the Rework is trying to get rid of).

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I reread the details in the OP so sorry if i missed it somewhere, but the only thing i saw mentioned about enrage having a downside was that it created a choice. I dont really think its creating a choice, as long as your attacking something with it active you still outsustain the drain and that 1% effective sustain reduction doesn’t really seem sharp enough to make a difference. So its on in combat and off when rotating…

Im sure im missing a detail in here that justifies having a downside, would you mind explaining that bit for me?

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The key part is “as long as you’re attacking something”. Any time that Varian is Stunned, Blinded, or generally not hitting something, he’s taking damage. Enrage is not something you’re supposed to have on all the time, so you have to know when to activate it to get the benefit. Under the most ideal circumstances you’re trading in 1% Maximum Health per second for an extra attack per second, but otherwise you’re actively harming yourself.

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but with only a 3sec CD for the toggle im not sure its creating that moment of forethought your looking for in the player. Its minimum 6% health cost if toggled asap which at 2000 base health is bwing pulse heal.

I think doubling the duration for the toggle would make the difference. Like at first glance it just seems to easy to work around and not impactful enough to warrant not using it all the time, except maybe against a jaina

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I’ll hit it with a 5 second cooldown - that’s a minimum investment of 10% of your Maximum Health, which I think is a fair cost for the value.

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Sold.

Its really to bad we cant mod and play with stuff like this.

Always enjoy your work and your willi ng ness to engage with it afterwards.

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Clearly Blizzard should just implement it so we can see how it runs. :sunglasses:

Thank you! I’m glad you enjoy it. :smile:

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The point on HKQ seems dishonest to be honest. You’re comparing it at level 0 rather than Level 1, let alone 10 or 20, which are more accurate points of reference. At level one, his attack is 77, making the relative differential only 77, followed by 54 at 10, and 37% at 20. Given how late the quest is typically completed, I feel you’re being dishonest due to a dislike of the quest concept as a whole.

You also basically remove any in-combat sustain beyond the baseline shockwave for both his Taunt and Colossus Smash Builds. I have to say, not a fan.

Could use some more work. Have a rework of my own I’ve been sitting on, so I’ll post it to you soon enough.

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I don’t feel that it’s dishonest when I outright state that’s what I’m doing:

And then immediately remind the reader that we’re looking at Level 0 and not Level 10 or 20:

If you would like me to add further points of reference to the relevant section, I can do that, but doing so still doesn’t change the fact that High King’s Quest is the optimal choice the majority of the time. It does too much for Varian’s DPS regardless of Spec and it synergizes too well with Second Wind, the sustain talent of choice.

I like quests when they’re appropriate. I don’t feel that High King’s Quest is appropriate on Varian - he’s supposed to be this Hero that’s capable of serving three completely different roles, and while he does do that, he’s also highly encouraged to take the same couple of Talents regardless of what role he’s fulfilling. A large part of that is because of High King’s Quest.

Yes and no.

  • Taunt gains increased healing from Lion’s Fang due to having a larger Health Pool, therefore increasing the sustain generated by it as well. Taunt also happens to have Shield Wall baked in, which can replace the need for sustain by virtue of just not taking damage in the first place.
  • Colossus Smash can fire off a Lion’s Fang every 3 seconds assuming the player can consistently hit Heroes with it.
  • Victory Rush allows you to restore 15% Maximum Health with a button press and is available to all builds.

Incidentally, this piece of feedback illustrates exactly why I chose to condense Second Wind into Twin Blades in the first place - it’s so pervasive in Varian’s builds regardless of Spec that restricting access to it makes you feel like he doesn’t have any sustain at all even though he’s got more than most.

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I have had ten people ask me today “Hey Kith, did you see the patch notes?”

The patch notes?

The patch notes about Varian?

The patch notes that involved rebalancing some of Varian’s stats and talents?

Varian’s patch notes?

Yes. I have seen them.

“Well, how do you feel about them?”

ehhhhhhhhhhhhh

Good change. Makes it a more competitive choice against HKQ.

Also a good change. Taunt Varian needs a little more oomph and this is a nice amount of oomph.

“But Kith, your Rework has way less of a Health Bonus than that. Why are you okay with it?”

I’ll tell you, Strawman Representing Four Different People Asking Me The Same Question! My Rework involved giving Taunt Varian Shield Wall for free, which should significantly increase his durability by virtue of being able to completely ignore all damage whenever he feels like it. Given that I don’t actually know how that would ultimately shake out performance-wise because I don’t have the means to test the full design, I was conservative with the Health Bonus that Taunt gave and had the backup plan “tune it later” in the unlikely event of the Rework actually going live.

Not a terrible change. A neutral change? Something like that. Regardless of the classification, it doesn’t cure the Best Build Syndrome that Varian has, but it should at least make Twin Blades slightly less stompy. Of course, it’ll still be incredibly stompy in all of the right situations, but making it less stompy while keeping it viable would require some kind of Rework.

Still only works on Heroes. Still isn’t worth it. If anyone from Blizzard is reading this post and you only take away one thing, please make it this:

Talenting for Lion’s Fang is a dead end without completely new talents or a total overhaul like my Rework.

Nobody is going to trade practically guaranteed sustain or burst (in either damage or healing) for a poke skillshot that does a poor job of both. Unless something radically changes, it will always be far more valuable to build on Varian’s strengths and synergies and keep Lion’s Fang around as a utility spell.

If there’s anything that took me by surprise, it’s this. I can understand the Banner of Stormwind getting a buff because Movement Speed is harder to take full advantage of than Armor in a hectic teamfight, but Banner of Dalaran too? Really? That, uh… seems a bit misguided when one of the goals of the changes was to tone down Twin Blades’ performance.

Jeez. I mean, yeah, good change, definitely goes a long way towards to making Glory to the Alliance compete better with Demoralizing Shout, but a 12.5 second cooldown on the Banner of Stormwind/Dalaran? The Banners themselves last 12 seconds. That basically makes them permanent. Definitely Level 20 Material, but now there’s literally no reason to take Frenzy.

Overall Thoughts

I don’t know what you want me to say, guys. The changes are positive to be sure and will probably influence pickrates a bit, but it’s not nearly enough to solve the underlying problems. It’s a nice band-aid, but the patient needs surgery.