Why? Because he doesn’t have variety. At all.
First of all, i love your heroesfire format. It’s so neat. I need to learn how to do that.
I think this is a perception issue. He actually does have variety. A lot.
Transcendence is the strongest talent in the lower league with IF being the worst performer. As you climb the ranks IF gets stronger and stronger. Insight remains the middle achiever across all ranks. Overall, all three talents have very healthy pick rates and win rates right across the board.
He had a patch ages back where they nerfed some of his baseline stats but beefed up the power of his level 1 talents. I really loved that because it made khara more defined. He really is an unofficial multiclass. By looking at his stats, this fantasy has been realised and it’s fun to play. Trans turns him into a tanky bruiser which feels totally different to IF. I’m not a fan of giving him a little bit of everything baseline. It’s…boring.
Whilst i agree that 7SS is more popular than palm, saying that he only has 1 heroic is a bit rich. Palm is also great, it’s just that it’s easier to get value from 7SS (and more fun) which is why players choose it.
I also agree that Blue ally at level 4 needs some love.
In your rework, it’s sad to see that 100Fists is only available if you pick IF. I love that current 100Fists applies your chosen trait. It’s a cool feature.
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I agree. It’d be understandable if the level 20s were doubling down on the different aspects of Epiphany, but these are just upgrading your basic abilities. “Oh, you want unstoppable on W? Sorry, should’ve specced healing.” It also means that you only have two options at 20 which isn’t fun.
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That’s more like it. Opinion on the concept: better than current, but ain’t ideal.
The talent ideas aren’t bad in a vacuum.
However, the way they’re organized would be a travesty. Dedicating an entire tier to specifically one ability is often bad design, let alone every tier to their own abilities.
Giving each ability only a single tier for talents is just a terrible idea, for 2 reasons.
- We could only ever have 1 talent for each ability. This would basically kill our ability to actually build for anything but his traits, since it heavily limits synergy between talents for any of his abilities.
- This creates the same issue (but much worse) that Thrall’s level 1 talents have – most just serve the same function, so people will figure out which one is better at that function than the others and always pick that one. He’ll have almost no build variety as a result.
For example, Harmony will almost always be picked over Blazing Fists and Relentless Assault. It's just objectively better in every way.
100% flat increased duration is more reliable than Relentless Assault’s conditional duration extension.
Additionally, Relentless Assault would bring Kharazim’s attack speed during Deadly Reach up to 5/sec, which, when multiplied by its 0.1 second duration extension per attack, only brings us up to 0.5 seconds of additional duration per second, which is effectively a 50% duration increase. 100% > 50%, so this not only provides less reliable value, it also just plain provides less total value anyway.
Blazing Fists is just useless. 0.5 additional attack range is pitiful, and the 0.25 second CDR for Deadly Reach is literally useless if you picked Insight and provides insignificant additional trait value if paired with anything else. This might work fine if Deadly Reach had an actual build you could synergize this with, but alone this talent is a trap talent.
If your issue with Kharazim is that he has no variety, then this rework will make your issue with him a whole order of magnitude worse.
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Yes, it was, but you anyway took it if you already took Iron Fists or Insight.
Blaze already has the same stuff, so?
And almost every hero picks only 1 talent at lvl 20 most of the time.
You’re totally wrong, mate.
How is that a bad thing?
But Kharazim is already designed to be played around his trait.
Right now he has only 1 talent with synergy - Heavenly Zeal. Everything else is totally designed to upgrade his trait or make him a better support.
The CURRENT Kharazim has this problem.
Okay, i easily increased it to 0.25 seconds, reduced the duration bonus from Harmony to 75%, and Blazing Fists now also grant you 10% Attack Speed bonus.
It’s not, because 1 bonus attack range actually matters.
It will reduce your D.R. even faster, because it’s basically increases the CDR from Insight to 2.25 seconds.
Did you just said that because of one E talent on lvl 16?
Give me atleast one hero that has variety, then.
Only one? Okay, it’s Hanzo
1 Like
Contrary to Maximus I found the idea of a single tier for every skill intriguing. Maybe it’ll work, maybe it won’t but pretty neat nonetheless. However one problem is the order of skill talents which I really didn’t know if I agreed or not. Maybe in addition you could decide which talent tier you would pick on level up? So I could for example take blazing fists at lvl 4 and ally at lvl 13 if I wanted to.
The issue isn’t playing around his trait, the issue is making it so we can’t do anything but build around them, and even limiting how we can even do that.
This isn’t true at all.
Blinding Speed, Quicksilver, and Way of the Hundred Fists synergize amazingly. They also synergize with his Iron Fists trait, yes, but that’s not all they do.
Heavenly Zeal also synergizes with Echo of Heaven excellently, and Blazing Fists paired with Insight synergizes amazingly with Echo too.
He literally doesn’t.
Kharazim currently has no talent tiers that force him to pick from talents that only affect a single ability.
So now it looks like Relentless Assault will be the go-to, because it can provide up to 125% additional duration (which grants 100% uptime on Deadly Reach) and you’re dealing more damage over that timeframe.
Blazing Fists is still pointless because it only gives +10% additional attack speed compared to RA’s +50%.
This is the problem. There’s too much overlap between what these talents are supposed to do, even if they work slightly differently. It really doesn’t matter how much you tweak the numbers, their designs and uses are too similar. The one that is objectively better will always be picked over the others because it will be better than the others no matter the situation.
Except this isn’t useful compared to Relentless Assault or Harmony because those two talents both provide more uptime for Deadly Reach than Blazing Fists does, and they provide additional value beyond just uptime.
Deadly Reach lasts 2 seconds baseline. You also reduced its cooldown to 8 seconds.
Your new version of Blazing Fists paired with Insight will provide ~6 seconds of CDR for Deadly Reach in 2 seconds. That means Deadly Reach will end right as it comes off cooldown if and only if you spend Deadly Reach’s full duration attacking. You have no wiggle room for missed attacks if you want 100% uptime.
Compare this to Harmony, which you initially had providing +100% duration for Deadly reach, bringing its duration up to 4 seconds and the CDR gained from Insight up to 8 seconds, and you have an ability that lasts nearly 1.5 seconds longer than it needs to. That gives you enough room to miss up to 5 attacks and still maintain ~100% uptime.
Nerfing it to 75% sets the duration to 3.5 seconds, which reduces the total CDR to 7 seconds and cuts the wiggle room to only missing 2 attacks. However, that alone is still better than Blazing Fists without even considering the +30% spell power.
Your current state for Relentless Assault would blow both of those out of the water.
Actually, no. That’s a colossal understatement.
You just created an infinitely-stacking-duration effect, akin to Tassadar’s Twilight Archon ult upgrade.
+50% attack speed for Deadly Reach would bring Kharazim’s total attack speed while Deadly Reach is active up to 250%, for a total of 5 attacks per second.
This means you’d be getting your 0.25-second duration extension 5 times per second. That’s 1.25 seconds of additional duration per second. While you attack something, anything, the duration of your current cast of Deadly Reach would count upwards, not downwards.
You wouldn’t even need Insight to have 100% potential uptime for Deadly Reach anymore. You’d just need to punch something constantly, and its timer would never run out.
Add to that the extra 25% damage you’d be doing with your 5th AA every second and the fact that you could pair this with Iron Fists or Transcendence, and congratulations, you’ve made this a do-everything talent and there is literally no reason to ever pick Blazing Fists or Harmony.
1 attack range matters if you’re at a breakpoint.
1 (or 2) attack range matters for Zul’jin because it means he can attack most other ranged heroes from further than they can attack him.
1 attack range for Tychus would put him on-par with other ranged heroes, making him less vulnerable to kiting.
Kharazim gaining 1 additional attack range with Deadly Reach would extend his range to 4.5. However, there are very few ranged heroes that have an attack range of 4.5, and he’s already outside the attack range of literally every melee hero in the game at 3.5 without that extra 1. If the enemy heroes can’t quite reach him at 4.5 range, they probably couldn’t reach him at 3.5 range either.
In this case, 0.5/1 additional attack range is negligible.
Bow attacks, strictly assassin. Not versatile. I may have agreed on TLV, because they can be played as tanky compilation, as swift assassins and as split-push gang, but any OW character is nothing but a one-trick-pony. Even Ana before her last tweak had been weaker as an RDD than Medivh.
Anyway, i’ll tweak my opinion, too. Everyone of HotS heroes could use additional talents. That’s more like it.
Just like it works right now!
How are they even synergize??? You pick B.S. anyway because it’s the best talent at lvl 7.
With that logic Mantra of Conviction synergizes with Way of the Hundred Fists
You know it’s not called sinergy, but build?
He does, because he literally has only 1 good talent at each tier. Well, maybe 2 on lvl 1 and 4. Everything else is the same in most of the games.
You undestand that Harmony is made to make you heal allies more, Relentless Assault is made for more damage and Blazing Fists is made for abilities spam?
It gives the bonus permanently. Not just for the duration of Deadly Reach.
Are they similar to you just because they are for 1 ability? Because they ARE different from each other and they ARE made for different builds.
As i said before, these are made for different builds.
Wut? You know these effect don’t stack? It works the same way it’s in the game right now, and you should’ve know you can spam your E if you took Insight+Blazing Fists. And where did you even found that “250%”?
Don’t you understand what I meant??? I was talking about the variety in talents and builds, not in the roles. There is no need to have heroes like Zarya who can go Ranged DD, full Support, full tank, Melee DD, because it will turn HotS into clown-fiesta like League of Legends.
Calm down, your grammar falters.
That one could be applied even to two-talent-tier restricted heroes. Luckily, HotS haven’t been reduced to such primality.
The more talents heroes have, the better and interesting the game is. Talents should also provide more benefits rather than simple “+X to damage”.
There is a problem in that definition. Zarya is half-RDD, half-MDD, half-Support, and half-Tank. She can do a bit of everything, but only a mixture of her “everything” will be enough in a teamfight.
Only obsolete gold farm and ordinal-based fighting will turn Hots into… anime. Additional talents are not “that special something” LoL has.
She actually has one of my favorite talent trees because of the different ways you can build her. If anything, I wish more heroes were like her. People will often end up picking the “meta” build anyways, so what’s the harm of adding more options to change up the way people can play a hero.
2 Likes
Not at all.
Blinding Speed means more dashes.
Quicksilver gives more movement speed after dashing.
Way of the Hundred Fists makes use of those extra dashes for more extra punch flurries and the extra movement speed by allowing him to stick to a target better.
Sure, except Way of the Hundred Fists is currently a level 16 talent, and isn’t gated behind picking a certain trait, and synergizes with more than one talent, and…
It’s a build because these two talents synergize.
Echo of Heaven heals for 150% of Breath of Heaven’s value. An additional 30% of that brings it up to nearly 200%.
These two talents put together nearly double Breath of Heaven’s healing output.
Combining Blazing Fists and Insight allows you to have constant CDR for Echo of Heaven, allowing you to pump out utterly ludicrous amounts of continuous healing. This build literally has one of the highest AoE healing outputs of any build in the game, able to average nearly 300 healing/sec by the lategame continuously.
This is what synergy is.
- This is objectively false.
Kharazim actually has one of the most balanced and evenly picked talent trees of all heroes in the game. Ironically, his level 4 tier is the one with the biggest difference in pickrate and winrate, so you’re wrong on that too.
- Even if it were true it would not be comparable to what you’re proposing.
The options are there, even if no one wants to pick the talents because they’re undertuned. They’d just need buffs to change this.
What you’re proposing is removing the option to pick a talent for any other build entirely.
- What you’re proposing would make this way worse.
Still doesn’t compare. An extra 0.2 attacks per second isn’t very useful, and RA still provides better value during Deadly Reach in multiple ways.
They serve the same role – increase Deadly Reach’s uptime. They’re different in how they do that, but they purpose of the talents is essentially the same.
Yes, I’m aware that Blazing Fists and Insight allows for 100% uptime on Deadly Reach. That is because Blazing Fists increases the duration of Deadly Reach by 100%, not because of the paltry extra CDR.
Fun fact, before Kharazim’s mini-rework back in Blazing Fists used to just be the 0.25 seconds of CDR. The 100% duration increase was a talent at level 13 called Fists of Fury.
Blazing Fists had a sub-10% pickrate because it was effectively useless, and everyone going Insight + Fists of Fury + Echo of Heaven took Heavenly Zeal or Blinding Speed instead of Blazing Fists because they already had plenty of CDR from Insight.
Your Blazing Fists talent is just the useless pre-rework version of Blazing Fists given a negligible buff and moved up from level 7 to level 16, which is a net nerf.
I seem to have worded that incorrectly. I meant Kharazim’s total attack speed during Deadly Reach would be 250%, not that the attack speed bonus was an additional 250%. I’ll correct that.
In your rework concept, RA increase’s Deadly Reach’s basic attack speed bonus to 150%. That means you’re adding +150% to Kharazim’s baseline 100% attack speed, for a total attack speed of 250%.
Baseline, Kharazim makes 2 attacks per second. Deadly Reach increases that by 100%, so up to 4 per second. RA would increase that by an additional 50% of baseline, meaning that would be 5 attacks per second.
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This becomes reality and not only binded to his heroic?
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How have i not seen that carbot yet? That was awesome
Blaze only has two options because he only has one non-heroic option, not because they gave him four non-heroic options but arbitrarily decided that they should require taking the right Stimpack or New Habits.
2 Likes
As a side note, I’m glad the pros favour Iron Fist.
When khara first came out Transcendence was considered the must pick. This was part due to tuning and part expectation from the community. You’re a healer so you should heal.
Insight was a junk talent because it had no CDR. You built up all this mana for what? There was no way to spend it fast enough. Iron Fist was a throw / meme talent picked only for the lols.
These days, Khara is in a great spot because he’s free to pick the damage build without backlash from his team mates. Sadly, this freedom is not shared with Twin Blades Varian. Sorry buddy.
I am not a pro, but personally I start to favor it as well, because I like the reasoning behind, where it’s more useful, because pros have better determination and focus over the avg. players. But since this build tends to be mana hungry I feel that Insight is the easiest build for me, because there is no mana issues.