Kelthuzad's Chains range is wayyyyy too long

General Discussion
42

I usually solo lane against butcher as Morales. When I die, I open a “butcher op” thread here on the forums.

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43

Pretty sure he means the second chain.
When it magically extends at Max range for some reason. Would be nice if they reduced the “auto-lock” range as it is a bit generous.

Chain 1 is perfectly fine though.

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44

What I dislike more than the range of KTZ chains is the fact that he can pull you out once you’re behind your gates…

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45

doesn’t matter, a KTZ spends all game fishing from a screen away they’ll get you several times out of sheer luck and it’s not fun to play against, even if it’s bad for them to do.

A) somebody posted a vid of a speed-boosted zagara zigging, going the correct way, dodging it completely and the chain snapping a full hero’s-width to the side to pull her anyway.
As for the rest, see the first reply in this comment. If he sucks to play and sucks to play against… they need to do something about him.

You’ve contradicted yourself there. The average player isn’t skilled enough to dodge fishing hooks from fog of war for 30 minutes, and even if it only lands 4 times that’s still awful to play against, not even accounting for the fact that you actually can’t dodge it it’s just a roll of the dice if the KTZ just happens to chain in the direction you’re going
aaand statistics do support me bc KTZ is the worst winrate of any blowup mage so his wombocombo fishing-from-fog has so much potential (and is so unlikely to hit) that players only really doing that makes him not even good and terrible to play against, IE he needs a rework.
PS responding to any criticism with “you must be a nub!” makes you look like a gigantic loser. The important thing is clearly that you’ve found an excuse to feel better than anybody who thinks the game should be fun to play, good 4 u

46

In a thread where another more updated video from April 2018 showing the hitbox of the first chain and the second chain to be fine compared to the one. In September 2017.

47

First of all: The second chain is as long as half the screen at best. If this is not the case for you I propose you use the zoom out function. This might also help dodging the chains.

Secondly: Do you know how high the chances are, that you get hit by such a narrow skillshot out of pure luck? I really suggest you try out KTZ for some matches and tell me afterward, if it is really so easy to hit this skillshot-combo.

48

His chains are a problem by the way. It needs a slight range nerf. Damage wise KTZ is OK imo.

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49

The only unfun part is when on screen it looks like a clean dodge, while in reality its a hit. And thats a part that realy should be fixed at longer range (and only at long range, close range chain hits should be punished).

Unfun is a valid argument when it clearly shows something that doesnt appear right. Its a horrible argument if there is no context given with it.

Unfun is the reason why many teamplay oriented games are getting rid of instakills. Because being unable to react, or having a small mistake translate into death 90% of the time is simply not a fun mechanic. Unless you are a fan of dark souls.

So stop quoting only a small part and complain only about the unfun part. Because that is actualy a horrible counter argument.

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50

Flexibility in talents can fix it a little (like a generic talents). Thats why generic talents are good thing.

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51

Well, that was not the OPs message. Reading comprehension. Scroll up and get back to me.

Except, there aren’t any one shot mechanics. Since we’re talking about KTZ, he doesn’t have one shot mechanics. He has a combo, that he has to get pretty close to initiate, and then accurately land it. Skill should be rewarded.

So stop interjecting when you have zero idea what you’re talking about because ‘unfun’ is an absolute trash argument to make. Period.

52

As someone who plays KTz quite a bit I’d say I’d be happy if they removed the Iceberg completely or put it a takeable talent at say lvl16… But, don’t mess the chain :slight_smile:

And honestly that’s what it comes to at the end, a good KTz will be able to chain 2 people when doing things properly, a bad one won’t have an “excuse” of iceberg thingy that can abuse for “secured” one-target chain

EDIT: even better idea:

Make Iceberg pickable talent on lvl4

So it’s Philactory, Iceberg, or Armor, choose 1 of 3, Iceberg now has even less CD (say about 16 sec or 20 or so) that KTz can use for self-zoning possibilities and make it interract with Q or W hits and make it explode for greater AoE, (not higher damage, just greater AoE of that Q or W that hit it)

Long-story-short:

Overall, the chain someone then on Iceberg is super cheesy and unfun to play against 100% agree

Just don’t think other than that he has things that need nerfing (such as baseline his chain ablity)

53

Yeah, this is what I always reply to those “X hero is OP and there’s nothing I can do against them!” threads: playing as that hero really tends to de-mistify them.

When I played Kel’Thuzad, I found that his chains were too short, and it was really difficult for me to land them without getting killed first.
Granted, this was before they baked the glacier into baseline kit (and I didn’t like his playstyle, so I never plyed him again).

Noone has ever replied with something like “I did play as X hero, and I still think they’re OP”, never.

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54

I use the first two bans on 2 heroes when I am banning… Kel and Aba. Thats only advice I can give you.

55

One shot and insta kill are a diffirent meaning. And with insta kill i mean a kill that quickly takes you out, while you cannot escape it effectively. And thats what kelthuzads combo does.

And even though i stated a diffirent argument (the argument of the part i find unfun), it doesnt mean his became invalid, he gave a reason which he finds unfun. Thats simply still a valid argument.

An example of an insta kill in team fortress that was also called massively unfun was the initial release of the sandman, once hit you became a stationary target for several seconds. Enough time for the scout to get close and kill you.
Once hit, you are relying on the enemy to make a mistake to not die. It doesnt matter wether its 1 or 20 shots on that. Kills in which you didnt standa a chance to defend yourself arent fun to face. And if they are repeatedly and easily perform it becomes a problem.

I also faced that same argument in mann vs machine for years while making maps and missions. Anything that instantly killed the player (or made him stunned in such way it guaranteed a death), wasnt fun to face. And thats already in a game that has more insta kills than hots will ever get. And the same reason why many tf2 players arent switching to overwatch.

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56

Again: the “insta kill unfun” thing is an unproductive argument. Kel is the mage Butcher. Butcher is exactly the same, unless you have hard counters to his charge or a blind ready, late game if you are picked for his charge, you are dead (and to hell with your blinds if he uses LTTS on you).

People argue "its fine tho, because counters exist and you need to deny Butcher early to stop/delay this and draft appropriately.

Exactly the same for kel. Before blight 30 his damage is not too remarkable for the sheer amount of cds he has to chuck at a target (and the fact he has to hit skillshots). A Butcher can come online after a poor early game by hiding in lane and farming meat or hiding at the back and picking up assist meat. If kel doesn’t get his nose dirty by wading in with chains on enemy heroes (assuming pre 15 blight) then he is not getting that blight. Punish him for it.

Unfun it might be when he does come online, but he’s a feast or famine hero, that’s how he works. If he gets to the stage where he can combo you to 0 and do so with impunity he hasn’t been bullied enough throughout the game and it’s a lesson to be learned.

Play as kel and you will see not every game is a “LUL instakill” fest. Those games where you cap blight late make you feel like a complete liability.

People just need to remember kel is dangerous late. The fact he’s a bit meh early is in no way a reason to undervalue him early game. Gank him whilst his combo can’t OHKO you and you’ll deny him the chance to ever do it. If his combo doesn’t kill you he can’t do squat anyway due to his cooldown and the positioning they require. If he doesn’t have chains and doesn’t land it his damage output is massively weakened.

57

I did no such thing.

You’re assuming an average player against an above average KTZ. actually try playing KTZ. landing the chain on your spike and then aiming for an enemy hero takes a LONG time. the setup is often enough to juke the second chain entirely or at least move behind a part of the environment that will stop you from being moved.

Once again, skilled players do not have this problem. if KTZ’s chains were a dice roll, he’d be destroying master league, pro games, etc.

KTZ has a sub 10% popularity in Master League and just BARELY breaks into the top FIFTY winrates over the last month. your argument would imply that KTZ dominates high skill play when instead he’s actually a niche pick at best.

This is a COMPLETE non-sequitur . this is like saying “my mom likes pancakes, therefore Kel’thuzad hates bacon”. it’s a nonsense conclusion that doesn’t actually follow from the information you tried laying out.

It IS scrub criticism to be blunt, though. I don’t really feel the need to be nice and sugar coat it. A lot of these types of “unfun!” criticisms are straight up from lower skill players who think BUTCHER is overpowered or that LiLI is just too strong. you can’t balance a game around bad players because they think almost anything that beats them is unfun or OP.

Again, what a low skill player finds unfun and what a grandmaster finds unfun are two different things. Balancing exclusively around what seems “unfun” has no benefit to the game. it isn’t an objective measure of balance because it changes with skill, game knowledge, attitude, mood, etc.

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58

my only problem is when the chain extends WAY past its range and gets you, I have had a lot of times where I get chained and I KNOW I was out of range of it then die because of it and during my entire respawn I am just thinking, “that chain was WAY longer then usual wtf”

59

Except KTZs abilities are not easy to hit. They take practice and his skill floor is higher than most heroes. I’m of the stance that the harder a hero is to play, the more rewarding he should be.

Except, it’s riddled with so much counterplay that I can’t agree with this statement. He has to get in close to land his combos so you know when he’s about to do them. If he chains you, move away from your team. If he chains a teammate, move away from that teammate. The chain is not indefinite so even if you can’t avoid getting chained, delaying it means KTZ has to sit in the frontline longer to finish off his combo.

It really isn’t which is why we have mindless rendition of a game that once was. There’s so much counterplay out there but people would rather mindlessly drone and chase kills all day.

To me, that’s not fun.

60

Thankfully they are performed neither repeatedly nor easily. Happy to come into an agreement with you that KT is in a good spot and needs no adjustments.

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61

not being performed repeatedly or easily doesn’t mean he isn’t broken, it just means he’s both OP and UP, IE he needs a rework.