He deals more damage than a tank but have less CC (miss your storm bolt and you won’t have peel or engage for the next 10 seconds) so shouldn’t he be drafted as a bruiser as opposed to a tank?
If Muradin is a tank then shouldn’t Imperius be a tank then? He has CC and deals high damage.
No no no. Muradin is a dwarf had a small radious
But he can stun, slow and can substain a lot of dmg
Nobody picks sledgehammet anyway so he can reduce att speed
He has high survivibilty with dwarven rage and his other 13. I call him a tank
Otherwise you ca n call stitches a bruiser as well
I do kinda agree that Imperius could be a tank.
Poor Tyrael, maybe they can make him more Bruiser-like, as he’s not really meeting the Tank requirements. More damage please, or a rework with more CC baseline.
Muradin feels like main tank to me. He has a more reliable CC than some. Which tanks are you comparing him to as the “real” tanks?
Muradin has a lot of attributes that makes him feel like a tank than a Bruiser, he’s pretty good at staying alive if you don’t use your E for engaging and has infinite sustain in the right circumstances.
mura is definitely a tank, just a tank with high dmg (absurd)
tank has peeling, cc, high survavibility
don’t forget mura’s q gets cdr after some time in the game
I woud not put imp as the tank category since his survavibility is poor compared to mura/diablo/jojo
and he does not compensate with some kind of mobility like jump or power slide
finaly his cc is less efficient than mura
but imp has more dmg & more burst than mura, fits well the bruiser type imo
Muradin tends to be played as a bruiser since Haymaker finally caught on, but labels aren’t the tl;dr of a hero.
Muradin’s sustain does wonders for keeping him near fights and his sustain greatly ramps up, but it does come at the cost of his damage potential. Similarly, if people only look at stormbolt for “peeling” then they’re severely undercutting all the tools tanks use to tank.
Imperius is similar in that he has talent-based sustain and he is picked in teams as an effective tank. Part of the point of tream compositions, and hero variety, and talent options, is to influence how a hero plays such that teams could have bruiser muradin or even tank Xul.
However, at the neglect of most talents, muradin still has solid sustain to trade and take hits better than most bruisers (main exception dehaka, but he still farms for his sustain) while imperius is generally built around his combo for control and damage.
Etc can be a support compliment, jo as an off-lane soak, and so on. A hero is usually better designed when they have some leeway into what they do and how they play beyond one gimmick.
However, both newer and impatient players dont care for particulars, so a simple label helps people along with the “oh Ive mastered all the heroes” mantra they chant when going through the hero collection for HotS.
It should be noted that many tanks have a bruiser sort of build as well, so somewhat high damage output is a poor indication of what should be classified as a bruiser or tank.
Muradin does a bit too much damage considering how durable he is.
Muradin
Storm Bolt -> Stun, quest provides more CC but requires offense
Thunder Clap -> Slow and attack speed debuff
Dwarf Toss -> Armor
Second Wind -> Durability without needing to attack, unlike the bruisers
Avatar -> More durability
Haymaker -> Displacement for peeling
Block -> Durability
Third Wind -> Healing
Reverberation -> Further reduces enemy attack speed, while it doesn’t have the 100% damage reduction of a Blind, it lasts quite a bit longer at 3.5 secondse
Thunder Burn -> Extends duration of the debuffs
Heavy Impact -> Heavy slow for peeling
Skull Cracker -> Mini-stun
Healing Static -> Healing
Thunder Strike -> Yeah it’s damage, but also increases Dwarf Toss armor duration for durability
Dwarf Launch -> Bit of a stretch, but range for distance peeling and cooldown reduction for armor
Imposing Presence -> Active Attack speed reduction, and movement speed reduction for peeling, passive for durability
Stone Form -> Healing, no offense required
Unstoppable Force -> Armor, more mobility or debuffs
Grand Slam -> More displacement
Hardened Shield -> Armor
Rewind -> Just everything
Imperious
Celestial Charge -> Stun
Solarion’s Fire -> Slow but no attack speed debuff
Molten Armor -> Healing for durability
Valorous Brand -> Healing for durability
Angelic Armaments -> Durability
Wrath of the Angiris -> Same as Haymaker kind of
Impaling Light -> Cooldown reduction for peeling
Consuming Flame -> Increased slow
Sovereign Armor -> Armor
Battle Hunger -> Healing
Press Forward -> Healing
Flash of Anger -> Shield
Pathetic Mortals -> Damage reduction
Divine Rage -> CDR for increased healing
Heat of Battle -> Increased healing
Valorous Pursuit -> Armor
Heavenly Host -> Ally shields, later offense
Unrelenting Descent -> More displacement
Impervious -> Durability
They’re similar.
But Imperious does have more damage output and Muradin more CC, especially against auto-attack heroes.
Muradin does have more healing and armor that doesn’t require him to be offensive to get it.
To deal more damage than a tank, you have to build him specifically that way.
Avatar makes you tankier than any bruiser could be.
Lol after neutering diablo you also want to neuteur muradin one of the last bastion of tank fun?
Imperius could tank before and would be fun if he could have Q engage more often with say old impaling light.
You realize that there is quite a bit of overlap between the Tank and Bruiser roles, right?
Muradin leans more towards the tank, but certainly can be played as a 2nd tank or a bit of a bruiser. Same can be said the other direction for Yrel or Imperius.
no. Simply no. Nope. niet. nu. nein.
Muradin is the tank. His kit is solely built around tanking. All his abilities are peels or can be turned into one, even his E.
A damage build muradin sacrifices a lot of the durability. Most tanks have high damage build that will lower his otherwise sustainability or CC in a fight. It is natural, this allows tanks to compliment if their team needs a tad more damage. This adds depth to the heroes and the game itself. I wish people stopped complaining about it…
PS: the role map is stupid. The initial one was far better than this one.
This i dont agree on. The best mura build is stacking Q on 1 and give em the axe on 7. These 2 outside of Haymaker are his main dmg source. W on 13 is total crap since you never as a tank fight 1 vs 1. In my opinions those lvl 1 and 7 talents are mandatory for him while barely gimping his survive. Only HM does that but that is a ulti.
Especially hammer on 1.At 20 you can mow whole backline with 2 hammers to 2 targets.
Now what i see about Mura is that he kinda sucks as a tank. He is way better at chen job of murdering backline. Especially with heal on W after 13. He does not want to tank since he is hard to run from and can bash backline head in.Even HM makes him dive right in enemy.
Soo both of his ulti are best when he is right in the enemy and not defending. I found that he kinda plays like more durable imperius and chen (he can take WAY more damage then them if avatar and HM makes him kinda like imperius with slam ulti).
If what you call a tank is something that is only allowed to peel for you so that you may faceroll you dps rotation i am afraid to say that only johanna fills the bill and even then you can do some damage with good blessed momentum and roar usage.
Diablo isn’t really weaker than he was. He wasn’t that strong to begin with.
Why do you feel it’s the best build?
Actually, Lvl 1, you sacrifice Third wind. Which gives you 180hp per second and activates your trait more often at higher health threshold. It allows you to stay in fights forever.
There are synergies that a lot of players don’t realize on Muradin’s talents.
Your typical build is Third wind → Thunder burn → “Skull cracker” → Avatar → healing static → StoneForm → Unstoppable force.
Here’s why that build is so good. First, you heal so much, after you disengage that you can go back into fights as much as you want, and when ppl run from you, you heal as you chase them.
But the biggest reason is that Avatar gives you 6361 hp at Lvl 13. Now, healing static gives you 5% of your health back for each hero hit. That’s 320 hp per target. Hitting 3 ppl gives you around 1000hp, and because your W hits twice, you get 640 hp per target. Your W slows, and you get a stun every 3rd AA, so you’re guaranteed to be able to keep one or more target in your W for both procs (at least one). With 3 ppl focusing you, you gain 1908 hp back. And you still have a get out of jail if things go sour.
The damage talents are there for QM, if you get paired with a Johanna, Garrosh, Stitches and don’t need to really tank. But if you take that as a main tank, you are weakening your team and yourself. As you are Much easier to kill. So it does destroy your survival.
Remember that ,as a tank, dealing damage is not your job. You just want to enable your assassins.
This is incorrect for 2 reasons.
Chen is a bruiser, so while he’s disrupting the backline, his team still has a tank. If you jump in the backline and start chasing as Muradin, then your team has no peel. The bruiser cannot do your job.
Chen has the tool to stick to targets and survive the dive. Muradin doesn’t. getting away from you isn’t hard. Chen slows targets and can constantly Q on them. With triple Panda, you can’t CC and stop all of them. With Muradin, you only have 1 target to stop. Also, you’ll notice that Chen was constantly picked and banned in a LOT of games, while Muradin was ignored at high levels.
Killing a good Muradin is as hard, or harder than killing a Johanna.
I guess some heroes are in between. They have some builds for another role. Such as Muradin, Yrel, Imperius, Sonya, Kharazim, etc.
Wth?
It has to depend on the talents and team composition.
Muradin is one of the main tanks who regularly gets deleted.
Typical player playing him suboptimally ends up backlining a lot, waiting for 4th wind to kick in, just to lose 80% health in 2 seconds a couple seconds later, followed by a jump away from fight again.
On the other hand you have those Muradin players who are literally unkillable.
(In contrast, Johanna is more of a brick.)
His damage was rather high. He still has powerful displacement CC and durability.
What is typical? The only one of those I take is Third Wind.
Those provide the most durability, but I tend to take ones that provide better CC for my allies. Heavy Impact is practically a root if they have nothing for mobility. Haymaker is a great peel to save allies from divers, you don’t have to always dive deep and punch them into your team.
But I guess I focus more on the CC and mobility, so Third Wind and ally support is usually enough that I don’t need the excessive healing from that combo.
That really is a non-issue. If you can draft a tank and a bruiser, you can draft two tanks and build one as a bruiser with talents.
I’d do it like one of those stat graphs they use in Pokemon.
A hexagon with:
Durability - Max HP, self shielding, self healing, armor
Damage - with tick marks representing average dps, and burst
Mobility
Ally buff potential
CC / Enemy debuff potential
Ally healing/shielding
Preferably have it in game, and have a thing going so you can choose talents and see how the graph shifts. Perhaps a hero to hero comparison where you set them side by side and choose different talents and see how their capabilities compare.
Then you would know, oh Tyreal isn’t a “Tank”, or a “Bruiser”
He’s a somewhat tanky hero who has decent mobility and provides some support for allies. If we take him, maybe we can have a lesser “healer” like Tyrande or Uther and still be fine.