Being manaless isn’t what is making gazno, dva, and hogger the holy trinity. However, it’d still go a long way to nerf their late game power.
The holy trinity can be easily changed to be more early game than late game.
Gazno: make his turrets do bonus damage to minions, lower his base damage to heroes. Nerf his level 20 gravobomb radius. Problem solved. He becomes a splitpush bruiser who has a small aoe combo ult so he isn’t completely useless in a teamfight
Dva: nerf her damage. Let her keep her niche of having two health bars so no health nerfs needed
Hogger: okay his mobility, bulk, and damage is still too strong. Pretty obvious what the devs have to do
I disagree on that. Resource is a way to limit output and cap their capability for sustained combat. Making this a fixed value means that this becomes a quite stale system.
Now there are a few heroes who can grant some mana, and shift this system to push certain heroes to become stronger. This is a dynamic feature to have.
The reason some heroes need such resource, is because they are designed to behave very diffirent:
Either they get direct CD reductions, and resources would cause good plays to drain a hero faster. (illidan)
Or they receive resource by combat (sonya, zarya)
Or they get a very fixed output, no peaks by spending extra mana, and no way to preserve. Which can allow a higher base damage (fenix, tlv, samuro)
Or they do have a very excessive resource management aspect, in which you can drain it rapidly to burst out. But a lot of the time become required to manage your resource. (morales, probius, deathwing)
Or in cho galls case, to prevent 1 of the 2 getting out of resources and being unable to hearth, or disrupt the other one by hearthing while he has resource.
But in most cases, you simply just set a resource in such way that a player can decide when to waste the most mana, and allow power spikes that way, while in most cases being generaly limited in order to preserve mana.
And it enables heroes like malfurion and (if talented: ) Ana or Medivh to grant extra resource and create benefits that way. Which because of talents can also be granted at a diffirent phase in the game.
I dont want all heroes to have a seperate resource system. Mana is an easy to understand system after all. And especialy at bronze levels can also seperate bad players from the worse (as they at least preserve their mana better and win fights that way).
Hmmm, maybe I oversaid it , what I really hope is that there will be even more resource systems as time goes on , not just mana (yes I aware of scraps, fury ,rage). Same goes to AA, more types of AA, channeling AA, AA that gets weaker with consecutive hits but get a boost in ability power etc.
Yea, Sonya also has no manaproblems, true, but that doesn’t mean that the @Op is right.
Gazlowe has the same pickrate (matches played) as Rexxar and Xul, two more successful Bruisers with mana.
Overall I don’t think no mana = op -what Tooton tries to say (not using Sonya as an example himself which could help his cause more than the “holy trinity”)- but that we’re still in the tweaking (and overreacting) era of our “latest” Bruisers.
Oh, I just thought it was a funny coincidence. And to be fair, I don’t think he is saying that lacking mana is what makes a hero OP, but that makes them strong late game.
I would strongly disagree, as most heroes that suffer mana tension tend to be weaker in the early game due to lacking talents, completed quests, or simply the way regeneration scales. Healers like Uther and Rehgar have to be very aware of mana usage until they can pick talents to offset that. Tyrael and Anub’arak cannot simply spam spells in the early game, but as their regen scales, and various talents improve on their base abilities, they can be more aggressive in the later game.
Don’t Energy picks also soar off in League because they’re generally designed around a single ‘expenditure’ of that resource?
Also, doesn’t this depend on the hero? Also, if things fall off too hard late game, don’t they just get swallowed by the ugly layer of self-sustain bruisey types we have?
Mana burns are a horrible design because they cause more issues than they resolve. Some heroes can spam regardless, they arent affected, some already have a big mana restriction, and they can be crippled to uselessness. Mana burns make these effects even more excessive and would require nearly all heroes to get additional mana regeneration as baseline.
A silence already does the job: it locks out abilities. No need to burn mana.
Even temporary burns which convert all the mana to the state it regens (so it doesnt actualy burn the mana. but for example puts your 500 mana to regen over 5 seconds), can be a problem as some heroes only need 80 mana for a combo, while some need like 200. It surely causes a diffirent balance, but again, the hero which already requires extra mana management (and is usualy more difficult) is punished harder.
Mana burns do not belong in this game. It might work in LoL or dota, but in hots, it wouldnt work. We do not have items to counter such mechanics (and no, i dont want items to get added aswel).
It’s funny, because when Gazlowe was changed, some people were maybe having some issues with him, but commended the scrap mechanic.
And I was like…uhhh, the scrap mechanic was ALREADY cool and so unique. The new system just made it have:
less interactions with your abilities
reduced the length of scraps, so punishing windows to retrieve them, because it didn’t really matter all that much anyways which bad Gazlowes often ignored anyways.
removed scraps from structures to give you moments of extra push
basically made using his abilities more monotonous (though still requiring some skill) because you’re just basically spamming things on CD so long as you’re setting up your combos correctly when there’s no mana tension anymore.
Mana is a great mechanic because it’s one of the tools that allow you to be more intelligent with the rate of usage of your abilities. This is especially helpful in the early game to put pressure on heroes. But now, those heroes are just going to be less useful comparatively.
I think having some heroes have no mana is fine, but to think that having no mana automatically makes heroes more cool by being “different” is just silly. This is especially true if you just put no mana on bruisers with huge amounts of baseline self sustain who can already bully some heroes out of their globe. It becomes too easy to reset the game state, when backing should be that primary function.