How to properly change exp soaking

General Discussion
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So I really like and agree with the intent of the exp change, but the actual changes made are… highly questionable at best. Let’s break down the pros and cons.

Pros:
  • Visual and audible indicators to encourage exp soaking
  • Gives people time to reach and collect exp if they aren’t already close enough

These are 2 very good pros. This makes laning actually feel rewarding to people who don’t yet fully understand how important soaking exp is. Now hopefully all those Sylvanas, Zagara, and Sonya teammates I keep getting in QM will catch onto the value of soaking instead of trying to ARAM the entire game.

Cons:
  • Massive blow to indirect soakers/pushers (i.e. Azmodan, Abathur, and TLV)
  • Significant nerf to squishy heroes’ ability to soak safely
  • Significant buff to Bruisers, especially those with high kill-pressure
  • Pointless inconsistencies and exceptions for last hitting

These all break this change entirely for me. Pros or not, these completely ruin it.

Heroes who do not tend to directly push or soak lanes themselves, such as Abathur and Azmodan, have been effectively knee-capped.
Azmodan can no longer gather exp from his Demons, Generals, or stacked up dunks last-hitting. He now must be bodily present to collect any exp from minions he or his summons kill, which partially disincentivizes cross-map wave-clearing with his Q.
Abathur is much the same way. He can apparently soak with his hat, but if an enemy hero kills the hatted unit he loses out on any exp soak for at least 4 seconds, and he can no longer gather exp from killing minions with Toxic Nests or Locusts. Body-soaking is now effectively impossible with Abathur unless you don’t care to much about feeding.
TLV are another one who will struggle to soak without feeding, except they’re already performing pretty poorly, so this will just make a bad situation for them worse.

Squishy heroes will have to be extremely wary of beefier heroes who will punish them for getting close enough to soak exp. Those beefier heroes, like Bruisers like Artanis, Imperius, and Dehaka, will become incredibly prominent due to their ability to dominate most lanes simply by zoning away the enemy laner and employing one of LoL and DOTA2’s more annoying tactics: freezing the lane.

Put simply, freezing the lane is just standing by and letting your minions and enemy minions kill each other with out any help. This forces the enemy laning against you to extend themselves out into the lane in order to farm/soak. This basically means that squishier heroes have to put themselves in danger in order to farm/soak, rather than letting the wave come to them if they can’t safely push out.
This is one tactic I think the vast majority of us can agree LoL and DOTA2 can definitely keep for themselves.

The final point is the silliness of changing the rules for everyone except for a choice few abilities. On Live, last-hitting a minion with anything grants exp for that kill, even if you aren’t within soak range. This allows Mages to soak effectively even if they can’t safely approach, and is the reason why many heroes can collect exp even outside of normal collection range.
This change will make almost all of those abilities useless for distance soaking, because distance soaking will no longer be a thing.
KT Flamestrike kills an entire minion wave from 15 range away? No exp. Azmodan dunk clears the next lane over? No exp. Murky Pufferfish? Nope. Chromie Dragon’s Breath? Nothing. Hammer AAs in Siege Mode? Nada.
To my knowledge, the only abilities that escape this change are Abathur’s Symbiote and Ragnaros’ Lava Wave. Why change everything just to make an exception to these two abilities? It’s not like Lava Wave is all that different from Azmodan’s Globe of Annihilation or Nova’s Precision Strike, nor is Abathur’s Symbiote all that different from Murky’s Pufferfish when it comes to how they collect exp now. Why should these two abilities get special treatment with these changes? I see no reason for it, it just complicates things pointlessly, especially since it’s a clear indication they know how heavily this change will impact last-hit exp collection.

So, how to fix all this? Well, I’d say it’s fairly simple and straightforward.

  1. Keep the exp globes. The audio and visual cues are definitely an improvement.
  2. Make enemy exp globes completely invisible so people can’t track them to find bodysoaking Abathurs or Vikings.
  3. Leave the exp collection range as in on Live, at 12 (but maybe have the globes magnetize slower over distance?).
  4. Allow globes to be collected while in bushes.
  5. Make last-hitting by anything instantly collect the exp globes.
  6. Increase globe magnetization speed dramatically as you get closer.

Basically, this keeps both the pros while removing all of the cons. Azmo can still collect with his dunks, TLV and Aba can still sneakily bodysoak, Bruisers can’t sit on top of and freeze lanes against squishies, and no silly inconsistencies to keep track of.

Now the question is, will Blizzard take the most direct and efficient solution for once, or will they bend over backwards to try to find a “clever workaround” like they almost always do? Or will they just scrap this Anomaly entirely?

Edit: Added another tweak to make that some other people have been suggesting and is a really good idea.

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Making these changes would imply admitting they f up. So unlikely.

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The Anomalies are basically the devs throwing things at a wall and seeing what sticks. If they want this to stick, they’ll need to make changes. Otherwise, I don’t see this being popular enough for them to justify keeping.

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People always say things like this, but TLV put in a single lane and played well can contend with Artanis, and should have no problem collecting XP and possibly drive him back, depending on levels.
Heroes with good waveclear like Jaina can defend against heroes like Artanis, and should have no problem collecting XP.

Doesn’t really work as well in this game for a number of reasons.
Prevalence of entire minion wave destroying AoEs, and towers prioritizing minions even if you hit enemy heroes under the tower, being contributors.

I really don’t think the situation is anywhere near as bad as many people think.

However, some of these are good suggestions, especially the last hit one.

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The only real reason to have TLV is to spread out and soak exp. So saying it’s fine because of how a fight MIGHT go if they are all together isn’t helpful.
This effectively kills one of Abathur’s main benefits, while nerfing TLV’s only real benefit, neither of which are doing well in the first place. They might as well delete Abathur and TLV were they to keep things this way permanently.

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Defend? Yes. But if Artanis only stands there, watches the minions die and collects dem bubbles, how is Jaina supposed to approach and soak? Artanis will bully her out.

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Get near rank 6 is not THAT hard. The little orbs even move towards you.

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I think this XP globes are just too drastic. It was totally unnecessary to make such huge change, to change so many aspect of the game at once!

I think devs should start by making XP globes purely cosmetic. If it proves to be good, they could start experiment with things like XP collecting range, making globes visible etc…

Additionally, it XP globes will be problematic (and I am sure they will be more than just problematic) it will be pretty hard to say what exactly is the most broken thing.

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lava wave is an ult for EXP, since it cannot nullify an obj, a hero push , or even weak mercs… it only really affects minions, hence the wave can collect EXP…this ult has a long CD and the BEST thing it could do against a hero push on high ranks is to delay them, maybe some poke from the edge, THAT’S IT. the only use it has outside of EXP is to save it for a push, which as i said, will have minimal effect…and to STRETCH it, clearing a wave or 2 of minions with lava MIGHT get your team some poke on the towers and fort if the enemy isn’t there…so usually when the enemy dosen’t have solo laners like zagara or gazlowe, you just…spam it. also it is a reason why i prefer sulfuras more.

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I find the sound it plays when picking up an orp rather annoying. If there is really no chance theyre gonna revert the changes I’d atleast want to ask for a way to turn off that sound in particular.

Edit: Also can somebody explain to me how in hell Abathur and the like are supposed to be useful now? Summons can’t even pick up orbs.

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Well except you’re wrong. That’s what they are known for, but that’s not all they can do. I get top XP even when I keep them together, and have at times bullied heroes like Artanis out of lane.

He’s standing on her minions but not attacking them?
So nothing is blocking free frost bolts from hitting him, and no auto-attacks are helping him recharge his shield?
Well I hope she took Lingering Chill, because that lets Frost Bolts stack off their own Frostbite.

If he’s standing in his minions, Blizzard them all.
She has high damage output, he doesn’t want to take the entire minion wave’s attacks as well as Frostbite enhanced Cone and repeated Frostbolts.

If he insists on freezing the lane right before his turrets, she can rotate to another lane and help them push. Or take a siege camp.

And among all of that, there’s also the possibility of an ally rotating. Because unlike LoL it’s not just the “jungler” who gets to do that. Mounts, and generally closer lanes, allow other heroes to gank.
Granted they probably won’t kill him, the goal is just to keep them honest. At levels where people actually watch the minimap, you may not even need to make a full rotation to make him back up a bit, just step out of vision for a moment.

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One of TLV driving back Artanis in the solo lane? Outside of an extreme skill difference, I find that extremely implausible.

If you group them all up, then maybe you can manage it beginning around level 10, but then you’re missing out on the main benefit of TLV, which is the ability to soak the 2 outer lanes while your allies run a 4-man train down mid. I imagine this will only be a viable strategy on 2 lane maps, and even then that relies on not running into one of the true lane monsters, like Malthael or Dehaka.

I’m going to set aside the fact that Jaina is actually one of the better counters to AA-focused heroes like Artanis and just focus on why this would still be an issue.

Artanis doesn’t need to push. In fact, forcing Jaina to defend is the exact opposite of what he should be doing. He should basically be sitting around the enemy minion wave and posturing threateningly. It doesn’t matter how good your waveclear is if you can’t safely get close enough to cast it and then collect the dropped exp globes.

This is why freezing will be a problem. Jaina, KT, Gul’dan, etc. may be able to get the first couple waves or so at the cost of only some health, but Artanis, Imperius, Dehaka, etc. can basically sit in lane at half health and be perfectly fine until they run OOM. The squishies will have to back eventually or greatly increase their risk of dying, and that means lost exp and a chance for the enemy hero to actually push the lane while they’re gone.

I’m not saying they’ll never be able to soak. I’m just saying their ability to do so will be greatly reduced.

It is quite possible, there just isn’t any good reason to.

See, freezing lanes isn’t about holding the enemy team’s waves back, it’s about holding your own waves back to deny safe soak and farm. You don’t need to use your AoEs to clear, and in fact you would actively want to avoid putting your AoEs on the enemy wave, as that would push your own wave up for the enemy team to farm off of.

They only move towards you if you move within 6 range of them, and that is a deceptively short range. For reference, typical ranged basic attack range is 5.5.

In order to collect exp globes dropped from knight minions, you have to stand just behind your own archer minions or closer. For enemy archer minions’ globes, you have to be right up behind your own knight minions, just between them and your wizard minion.

That is a lot closer than “6 range” lets on.

2 things:

  1. Jaina’s gotta land those Frost Bolts in the first place, and it’s not like he’s going to be standing still. In fact, if he does stand still in the middle of the enemy minion wave, he’ll automatically start attacking them.
  2. Artanis doesn’t have to stand in front of his own minions. He just has to be near enough to be a threat if she tries to move in and collect those exp globes. Remember, 6 range is pretty short.

In order to get close enough to do that early game, she’ll be putting herself directly in Artanis’ effective range. Oh, and pushing the wave towards Artanis’ own towers, where he can soak more safely and chase her further if she tries to get close enough to soak. Not ideal.

Which means she’ll still be missing out on that exp, so Artanis has accomplished his mission of bullying her out of lane and denying her soak one way or another.

Sure, but your ganker is going to need to do that for almost every wave, which doesn’t leave a lot of time for them to rotate between lanes, especially if this same situation is happening in another lane. Either way, you’re still missing out on a lot of exp due to the Bruiser you’re laning against simply being better at dueling early-game.

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So what I’m reading is that you’re someone that drafts mages into the solo lane; the target audience the anomaly is intended to push back into the mid lane. Because a mobile ranged assassin atm will just beat out most bruisers due to higher burst while maintaining XP parity, harassing their bruiser/tank opponent, sieging towers with their long-range skillshots and farming quests on some heroes like Jaina.

As someone who plays TLV I actually like this change: by lowering their value as soak bots, it drastically lowers their hero worth. You know what happens to low worth heroes? They either get reworked or buffed in other areas to compensate.

I’d LOVE TLV to finally get some proper durability and teamfight presence with buffs to their grouped ability beyond stronger Spin to Win potential, Hell I made a huge wall of text forum post all about it like a week ago with some large-scale talent changes here in General Discussion.

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Pff, I play Probius. To get minerals you need to be at rank 1.5 and they barely move towards you. Exp globes are waaaaaay more easy to get. Just wait for the live patch and you will see it.

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You seem to be really bad at reading.

Notice how I mentioned this applies to all squishier heroes, not just Mages. Rangers like Valla and Tychus will also suffer greatly from this.

There are 2 problems with this:

  1. This doesn’t happen as is. Most Bruisers are able to bully most Rangers in lane.
  2. Even if you could beat a Bruiser by out-kiting them is you’d still be losing out on exp. All the Bruiser has to do is zone you behind your own minions and you won’t be able to soak.

Also, your goal early game is not to siege, it’s to soak. If you have to choose between soaking or sieging early on, always choose soaking, as that will allow you to siege harder later.

Well, you’ll probably be waiting a while. We’re still waiting on Tass and D.Va’s reworks, and they’ve supposedly been “coming soon”TM for 4 reworks and about half a year now, and to my knowledge we haven’t heard anything official about TLV getting a rework.

And if you ask me, it seems really backwards to hope for nerfs to a hero you enjoy in the hopes that maybe they’ll eventually be buffed or reworked.

You likely aren’t playing against a lane-bully Bruiser who is dedicated to denying you those minerals every game. I imagine if you were, things would be a good deal more difficult.

We’re already seeing some of what I’m talking about on the PTR. I expect that as people realize how viable a strat freezing lanes is it will only get worse.

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I guess we’ll just disagree here.
He he denies her experience but isn’t a threat pushing, then she helps deny his allies mid by outnumbering them.

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Until she gets her elemental ultimate to assist with pressure/damage Jaina is a free kill waiting to happen if she goes anywhere without a team to protect her. She’s incredibly squishy and not all that quick at running away.

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And all his allies have to do is not push too hard and get killed, and then they’ll have a 2+ level exp advantage in about 2 minutes from Artanis’ soaking.
Bonus points because while Jaina is mid and not soaking against him, Artanis is free to push top all he wants until she comes back, and then he just retreats and lets the wave refreeze when she comes back to defend.

Either way, the Bruiser is entirely in charge of the lane, and there really isn’t anything squishies can do about it.

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It just seems you probably aren’t that good then. There are plenty of ranged heroes that can go against bruisers. It really just depends on the matchup. Fan recently has done a few Ana solo lane videos.

As Probius, I beat out most bruisers. Once you destroy all the minions (which is easy to do with Probius), you can just easily kite around your photon cannon and that’s when you pick up minerals. The sieging is also not mutually exclusive to getting exp. It depends again on the matchup, but if you’re ALWAYS prioritizing soak, it probably means you’re just playing too passive.

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Con: you need to pick them up and they add unnecessary clutter to the game. They have to be able to find a better solution. I hate that it’s a physical thing with a sound.

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