Hanamura Temple Objective

General Discussion
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This isn’t a hate thread about the map, in fact I enjoy Hanamura Temple a lot. But as fun as the map may be, there is still one major flaw that is hard to overlook. In fact it suffers from the same problem as old Haunted Mines. The objective is too weak and the Sentinel camp is too strong.

Seriously, since the payload fires at the least damaged lane, if you haven’t been able to seriously damage structures, you won’t even take down a fort with 2 objectives.

The Sentinel, on the other hand, will cause much more damage in most cases. One could argue that you’re better off pushing with your Sentinel rather than trying to push the payload into enemy territory.

Can we switch some of the power of the Sentinel over to the objective? I think a nerf on its “cleave” ability would go a long way; maybe increase its cooldown or nerf the damage so it cannot take down a whole minion wave in one hit.

7 Likes
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Samurais were always strong.

(About main idea of post - it’s not bad suggestion)

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I have kinda mixed opinions about the strenght of the Samurai. Yes its unusually strong, but its also mirrored. I dont think nerfing cleave is a bad idea tho.
Still, objective being pretty weak is an old problem of this map.

I would try something else too. Increase obj damage a lot and structure hp less than a lot. The idea is that obj will do more damage to structures, while Samurai/hero push will take longer. Some may think its weird to change buildings just on this map (well, ToD) but remember that minions also give 50% more xp than onother maps.
You may also compare HM objective to BHB, but remember its 2 lanes vs 3. For the same reason minions give more hp on HM.

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I think the power of the Samurai may be okay. The objective is really weak though. First objective usually only take the wall and that’s it.

If they don’t want to increase its damage, they could at least make the objective way more frequent. That way you are slowly killing their structures. Maybe even increase the speed that you carry the payload.

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That’s it: the map is in need of a rebalance of power between the payload and the mercs, sometimes it’s always more important to take the samurai’s camp instead of contest the objective.

Probably making the samurais with a longer respawn timer or make them disappear while the payload is on (like mercs on most maps) could be enough. Or maybe just retune them to be less powerfull, both their health and cleave’s damage.

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I don’t mind it the way it is. Makes it different from other maps. If samurais have such power then be sure to send the appropriate heroes to defend or contest them.

Similar with haunted mines where teams would completely ignore the surface whilst they collected skulls, leaving the enemy free to take all mercs and just seige all their buildings

Edit: the only thing I miss is the hanamura boss camp

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I have complained and critiqued about this exact thing about this map, but most people just say oh at least its variety and different. Well haunted mines was different and now it is not even a map.
The worst thing about it is that 75% or more of my games here my team has no idea that the camps win this map. The camps are stronger than the obj. Even if I try to tell them, still wont listen. Its because they think hey the other maps the objective wins the game. This one obviously has to as well. And the game nor blizzard tells them otherwise.
But I remember when this rework first came out and you could bribe and sylvanas trait worked on the sentinel camp. Now that was bad.

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i say to nerf samurai’s cleave but increase his health by like 200. nothing too big, and make the obj fire 16 shots instead

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This is literally the one map of all the maps where the objective is weak.

Why aren’t you guys for map diversity? This is literally one of the few maps that requires players to use their brains a bit and consider the question “Should I go to the objective or can I get more value elsewhere?”

I know most hots players are “hurr durr objective up, must go for it durr”

For most people with a brain though, the difference in this map’s objective strength is a refreshing change, not only does it give the map pool some diversity, it also allows players who use their brains to shine more (naturally, players who don’t want to use their brains and just want to brawl at the objective every time it is up will be against this map).

And since players who don’t want to use their brains are in the overwhelming majority, threads like this pop up every now and then.

But the map is fine. Hanamura is a fun and decent map and a refreshing change from all the other maps (it’s not like the objective is so weak it can be ignored either. It can’t be ignored).

Edit: Bear in mind that hanamura is a small map with not that many things to do, and it only has a single objective to fight over.

Compare it to towers of doom, 3 lanes, mercs, multiple altars to fight over. Dragon shire, 2 shrines and a middle DK spawn location to fight over and 3 lanes and many mercs. Sky temple, multiple temples, 3 lanes, tons of mercs. Even battlefield of eternity and braxis have multiple locations to fight over (2 immortals, 2 beacons).

Hanamura has ONE fighting location, the cart. If hanamura didn’t have other things worth prioritising occasionally, it would HANDS DOWN be the MOST ONE-DIMENSIONAL map in the entire map pool.

Both teams would literally soak and merc the whole game (I take my merc you take yours, I clear your merc you clear mine).

Then when objective is up, both teams would go to the objective and brawl.

From a strategic point of view that would be absolutely bankrupt and empty decision-making. Absolutely zero strategy involved in any aspect of the map.

Hanamura, given its singular location to fight over (unlike the many many things to fight over on other maps thus rewarding sound decision-making and strategy) REQUIRES other things that could be prioritised over the objective. Strong mercs and strong lanes (hanamura minions give 1.5x the exp, I bet most of you don’t even know) is that thing to be prioritised.

3 Likes
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I agree. In fact I said this in my original post:

which is a proof I used my BRAIN (I noticed you like this word a lot), but I’m just reaching a different conclusion. The map is fine for coordinated play. But, HotS being what it is, chances are you will get players who understand how to play the map and some who don’t, leading to every player in the team trying to do something different at once which creates a frustrating gaming experience for everyone.

And let’s be real: any good player will ask himself the question “Should I go to the objective or can I get more value elsewhere?” on every map, not just Hanamura.

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Hanamura is the one and only map you can have 100% winrate up to platinum as a solo queue. Pick gazlowe or nazeebo and push the lanes ignoring the objective completely. You win

2 Likes
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Except the objective is so weak it can be ignored forever. This is bad map design. Old Hanamura was bad, but this new one is not that great either.

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I think Old Hanamura was better. It was just way too complex, people just didn’t know what was the best thing to do. The decision making caused too much stress.

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I remember those times where we had like 3 payloads on the map and everyone was like “wth I do now”

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:smile: I enjoyed the old hanamura too it was crazy. So many ways to win and/or lose.

On top of this you’d have ppl capturing boss for four shots, pushing with sentinels, or azmodan/naz/gaz is just straight split pushing down your forts and keeps

It was mental. No wonder ppls brains exploded

Edit: wait no I don’t think there were sentinels back then

3 Likes
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It’s a long objective that has a maximum amount of damage that doesn’t include killing minions. Even if the enemy team doesn’t oppose you at all, there’s a maximum speed the objective can move, capped at 3 heroes (and even then not all that fast)
I tell people it’s weak, and they still suicide for it.
Wouldn’t mind if they removed the cap so it can max out at a faster speed, and instead of having it stop when one hero is nearby, have each hero counter the pushing strength of one opposing hero so the defense has to be more decisive.
The idea behind the objective was better when you couldn’t attack the core like in Towers of Doom. Except having multiple Payloads did split things too weirdly.

So is it a map problem, or a the community is stupid problem?

They won’t listen if you tell them the same for Towers of Doom, pushing is more important than objective.
Or Blackheart Bay. Why gather coins, then die? You’re just handing them to the enemy team. Fight when it’s smart, but if it’s not just push.

Same with Haunted Mines. Only one or two heroes should go in the mines. The difference with this one though is the boss. The boss down in Haunted Mines is a bit too strong to solo. All Blizz really had to do was remove the boss down in the mines.

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It can’t be ignored forever. Whenever a team has downtime, they can send one of their supports or tanks (who would otherwise be contributing nothing else) to push the cart.

It can’t be ignored at all in fact.

The objective is weak for 5 people wasting 40 seconds of their time pushing the cart.

For ONE hero pushing the cart for 40 seconds, the objective is strong value. If one team completely ignores the objective the other team constantly gets huge value out of devoting minimal resources to push the cart and getting the value from it.

The objective is only weak if you devote a lot of resources (e.g. almost your whole team) to pushing it.

1 Like
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It’s weak no matter if you send 5 or 1. It’s better to just get camps asap and keep soaking lanes. Have you watched some high level games on this map? Best strategy is literally ignore objective forever. In some matches the objective is delivered post level 16, that’s how weak it is.

That’s why I suggested for the objective to appear more frenquently. That way you can still ignore some but not all of them, cause the enemy would just keep pushing your structures. They could even add a big more speed on the cart so it doesn’t take too long to push it. Because it takes too long to push the cart to the point, you will often just leave it there and go do camps because they give you a better advantage in the map.

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If one team takes mercs and soaks both lanes with 5 heroes, and another team takes mercs and soaks both lanes with 4 heroes and pushes the objective with the last hero (like a healer or tank who doesn’t contribute much damage to mercing anyway), I’m pretty sure the team pushing the objective wins the trade every time.

That alone means it is at least somewhat strategically significant because you can’t just ignore it if the enemy is pushing it with one hero.

The moment you try to contest that one hero, it becomes a full blown team fight as both teams send more and more heroes to fight over it.

If you don’t contest that one hero, then as I said, I’m pretty sure the team pushing the objective (while soaking and mercing at exactly the same speed since they put a low dps hero to push the cart) wins the trade every time.

If you HAVE to contest that one hero, then you send 2 heroes, then the first team sends 2 more heroes, then as I said it becomes a full blown teamfight.

Basically, as long as pushing the objective is more valuable for a single hero than doing something else, the objective will be strategically significant

1 Like
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Then why hasn’t that happened?

Because the objective is a “Gank me” sign.

Hanamura has a lot of problems. The overpowered and far-sided miniboss Mercs make it so each team has a lane they prefer to push, which never alternates, the payload doesn’t do anything of note compared to roflpushing.

IMO

  • Remove the samurai camps from their current position and have them set up where the Vision Camps are currently. Make them contested and dangerous rather than auto-takes that you send your bruiser to every once in a while.

  • Give the payload a mild regeneration effect to offset people poking at it from afar.

  • Payload should move faster with 3 people on it.