Guys, I had a revelation!

General Discussion
1

¡About supports!

There has been some threads lately, talking about what is the support role even supposed to be? Or if the role should even exist at all (given there are only total 4 heroes in it right now).
Must of us understand them as the “shield guys” of sorts (and that other heroes like Tyrael could be labelled as support). But, here is the thing, there could be heroes, like The Lost Vikings, that don’t use shields, but support their team by soaking extra XP, (which is cool!), however this only adds to the weirdness and confussion of a proper definition to the role itself.

So, I was playing today when it suddenly hit me when I was headed to the fountain for some mana…

What if…what if supports are the guys that mainly provide mana??!! (or its equivalent) a la Malfurion, but even better. You have an empty Fury Sonya? Just take Medivh’s portal and have +20 Fury (or whatever proper number), or are you using mana and need to go to the fountain? Here, take 50 mana boost, and so on.

Just imagine the possibilities! Medivh’s portals could provide the mana, the same for Zarya’s and Abby’s shields, and TLV could grant little mana to everyone around them constantly (a la Brightwing). Something like that (whatever proper abilities and adjustments). Now support heroes could feel as a group with a unique purpose indeed (instead of the guys that don’t fit anywhere else). Even the Vikings would be uniform with the others this way!

The best part is that, then, they are not forced to be the “shield guys” anymore, since now they could have any kind of abilities, ranged, melee, AoE, etc., but as long as some of those abilities help recovering mana, they could be a support hero.

IDK, but I think that would totally solve the “weird role” issue of supports. And in fact, it could make them a solid constant choice for team comps (depending on team, of course), but the role could become a serious demanded one. Which would be awesome (supports need more love).

My two cents.

What do you guys thing about this?
Be good people.

Edit:

Some other heroes I thought could, then, serve better as supports:
Murky: His egg could become a fountain of sorts, perhaps without healing (or with?), but you could go to it for some mana (could be very useful!)
Probious: His pylons could have charges or something for a teammate to click and quickly recover mana, or constantly grant mana around them. IDK, something like that (perhaps even his E instead? or a totally new structure for him to build?).
Tyrael: He “wouldn’t have” to be a support now, since shielding wouldn’t be the “defining factor”! So he could stay as Tank (see how this could work now?). However, just because so many people already imagined him as support. Let his trait have a new functionality, so then whoever ally is on the blast when he dies, would recover X mana instantly (or charge whatever amount of Fury/Energy). That would make his Trait so more useful!

The best thing is that their gameplay could remain almost intact (in fact they would become only better). They fit so well.

Anyone has other ideas following this concept? (it has so much potential. Let your imagination fly!)

10 Likes
2

There’s something like 18 heroes that either uses a unique resource or no resources at all, having a category dedicated to refilling all these different unique resources will become a nightmare to balance.

I personally don’t mind supports being a bit quirky, so long as their abilities are mainly about supporting the team they fit in the support category.

7 Likes
3

While I like the idea of providing resources, I have no problem with supports being the “weird” heroes. There are actually a lot of “weird” heroes, but they aren’t always categorized with the support class. Murky and Cho’gall are examples. In addition, there is more than just resources that could be granted by potential support heroes. Stealth, extra vision, extra range, CDR, the list goes on.

The real issue with things like this are, as mentioned, balancing. Personally, I would love to see the Support class go away entirely, and just let weird heroes be weird, regardless of how they are categorized.

9 Likes
4

I like supports as the shield guys. More shields please.

4 Likes
5

I don’t think it would be THAT difficult.
I also like them how they are, but that doesn’t mean they need some polish as a role. Like, what do you even mean by “mainly supporting?” How exactly is that? What is the support category to be precise? Know what I’m saying?

Me neither. But still “weird” doesn’t necessarily mean without purpose. I think they should be given a purpose instead of being the “weird” guys that don’t fit anywhere else.

6

And all the heroes that don’t have mana OR a mana alternative?

That’s the problem with it.

Innervate isn’t even castable on these heroes iirc. So obviously they don’t want these kinds of interactions.

There is obviously some way to do it, but I don’t think that it is a simply way. And would likely be months of trial and error and sapping development from most everything else

1 Like
7

All the supports are already consistently solid choices on lots of team comps.

Some are more map dependent, but they are all good already, if the player can play them, and your team knows how to play with them.

The difference with the 4 supports we have RN is many/most people don’t know how to play with them as teammates.

1 Like
8

Imagine giving Medivh even more utility.

Good concept, but no balance in sight.

9

That’s not the point, though. But that the role itself should have a goal (as all other roles have). Otherwise, just get rid of it and put the 4 heroes in some other categories.
When I say “constant as a choice” I mean that “support role” could become a must in some matches, adding strategy to the comps.

There is always balance to be found, if Med who is so good in proper hands is gaining something, taking something away usually does it. People that doesn’t know how to use him would not even notice a difference, know what I’m saying? :smiley:

IDK, it could work as far as I’m concerned.

I already addressed that issue… Did you read the whole thing? :smile_cat:

10

Maybe instead of giving the exiting support heroes resource return mechanics, that can be saved for future support heroes instead (since the 4 that we have now already have their places and are already quite good). But more resource burn/return mechanics could give a wider platform for future hero concepts

5 Likes
11

That’s a great idea too.

12

No.

Supports being a must is forcing compositions to exist from the developer side. That’s not a good way forwards.

Either you’re trying to force what people need to play as, or you’re adding complexity for the sake of adding complexity.

Not sure which is worse.

Is the below what you mean?
Because if it is what you mean, no. You did not address the issue overall. You addressed about a third of the issue.

1 Like
13

Yep, it was apparently intentional design.

4 Likes
14

Your ideas make sence, OP

1 Like
15

I mean exactly what I said, heroes which primary function is supporting the team, not just another damage dealer nor just straight up healing.
Future supports could have this resource retention mechanic, it could be other ways to buff the team, or debuff the enemies.

Giving the support category this “need” to recover whatever resource another hero might have, just makes them the “mana guys” instead of the “shield guys” and would just be a limiting factor if and when blizzard decides to make another support hero.

1 Like
16

The thing is, thats not how balance works. Its a bit more complex.

Medivh has quite restricted powers, there are plenty of situations in which he isnt ideal, and plenty where he is powerful. That taking away part might mess with quite a lot, and the addition of granting resources might create new ones.

But medivh has a lot of features he can add that can be OP:

  • His portal is a massive group gap closer
  • His shield with its cooldown can mitigate a lot of burst (it often acts as an ulti counter)
  • His arcane can deal a lot of damage if medivh is allowed to

Now in most comps, generaly 1 of these powers is not available for him, and often 1 of them is just average. But as soon as he can choose for resource generation, he might compensate a certain weakness which causes him to become effectively even stronger in a lot of games.

And this might require additional nerfs to balance. I can see the mess such change creates.

And on that, supports do already what they are said to do:

  • Medivh supports using portals, shields and CC, and sometimes damage
  • Zarya is dedicated for shielding, but also can go for damage.
  • Vikings support by XP, and sometimes damage
  • Abathur supports by XP and healing

And on that, valeera could even be called a support as she supports by providing strong CC and setup potential, and damage.

Support is a fine enough role to exist, as they are generaly more flexible in usage. It might sound a lot like healers on that, but healers have a major diffirence: healing is permanently adding HP to a target. And supports are often not reliable at doing so.
Even abathur which does have decent enough healing, can be negated by taking out the shield of the target.

And on that, i rather see more supports in the game.

4 Likes
17

I have no issues with the role itself. I have issues with heroes that have been thrown in the role.

Abathur and Zarya are about the only heroes that really fit in the role by definition of the word “support.” Medivh has skills that you could clump in there and consider Support, but in all honesty, he’s played more like a overly-complex assassin with supportive qualities.

When I think of support, I think of heroes that can support a team with buffs and debuffs and are played that way. For instance:

Tyreal could be thrown in this category. By doing so, blizzard could potentially focus on his talents and skills enabling his teammates more than they do already. As of now, they consider him a tank, when he’s played more as a bruiser and doesn’t really fit either roles and is usually picked to provide extra support, and yet is balanced as a tank. I think this poses a problem.

Another hero that could potentially be consider support is: Uther. Uther’s heals are terrible when compared to other healers. He isn’t quite good at healing. However, he is good at mitigating dmg which is why a lot of times he’s thrown in the “bruiser” category or off-tank. As a support, he’s excellent. As a main healer, I find he’s quite niche and personally, I think this is an issue. Healers should have their niche, but shouldn’t be niche.

As for heroes like TLV, he doesn’t quite fit the role of support. However, I do think he could be thrown in to bruiser. Sure he doesn’t play like a typical bruiser, but neither does D.va and I know a good TLV can act like a bruiser in a teamfight and he does solo lane (x3) for a huge quantity of the game.

A lot of heroes could be clumped in to the support category, but are not because I think Blizzard is trying to keep things simple which is fine, but then Blizzard ends up being forced to balance them based on how they’ve been clumped in that category. Take Yrel for instance; another hero that could be considered a support and I feel could be better if balanced for that category but because she isn’t, she’s balanced as a bruiser.

1 Like
18

Could you specify how? 'Cause it was not very clear. Tell me how they support their team in a way that no other role can do so, or at least no so efficiently, like assassins can do way more damage, healers can heal a lot (duh!), etc, so what is the support role’s speciality then? And how is it uniform between all the peers, please.

Yes, indeed. That’s the point. All roles have a common denominator, be it damage, healing, etc. So Supports could also have one (finally), they would be the UNIFORM mana/resource guys. Just as there are “damage guys” and “healing guys”. This is because not all supports use shields (and even other roles have shields as good as theirs as well), which means shielding is not the defining factor of the role (in fact, they have none, that’s the issue), and you can easily give them one by being the “resource guys”, just as healers are the “healing guys”. Know what I’m saying?

I hope so!!! :smiley: That would be cool. But think about it… For it to happen, the “new support hero” must have to be thought to be a support per sé in the first place… Let that sink in for a minute. How or why would that be if there is no defining factor of what a support even is? (you get me now?)
As far as I’m concerned, no other support hero would ever be made since they will simply be made as either of the other roles. The sole reason support role exists right now is because the heroes in there right now didn’t fit any other role, not because they have something in common (as all the others). That’s the point. Give them a role!!!

Me too!! but on that, please see above.

Well, I can see how a healer that also grants mana and roots could be busted in that particular scenario. But what about a guy that is not healing per sé, and furthermore, that you are giving one spot in your conventional team (healer, tank, assassin or bruiser) to fit the support one? That should help balance stuff, isn’t? You would be losing what any of those roles give to gain the support. Couldn’t it be more interesting? Just imagine it for a second, the decision making behind something like this would expand so much on the comp/draft strategy.

Is a decision, not a law. When I say a must is not in a “forced act” way, but a “wise choice” Notice the difference? It adds to strategy.

How? Could you explain it, please?

1 Like
19

are you suggesting making comps that utilize Abathur’s boosts, Medivh’s portals, or TLV’s ability to beat anyone in lane or soak 3 lanes aren’t “wise choices” to build a composition around/with?

Zarya is indeed out their a bit.

What about heroes with no resources, just cooldowns:
Hogger.

How about heroes who have a resource, but it isn’t really something that makes sense to refill:
Junkrat

How about heroes who are cooldown and mana based?
Whitemane.

heroes with resource to refill, but is in big chunks, and have CD based abilities?
Gazlowe

Do you give Whitemane mana back and something on her other abilities?
Does large amounts of mana for mana heroes give Junkrat a grenade? What about abilities that are meant to give a trickle of mana?
Does Hogger generate rage for some reason?

Does Gazlowe get an extra scrap every second (~8% of his total scrap limit iirc) for something that is meant to give a percent or two of mana a second?

How about Murky, who is also cooldown based, what does he get as a benefit?

Like I said earlier:

I do think this kind of idea would be cool, but, well. I also don’t think it would work without completely redesigning a lot of heroes or systems that work in HotS.

And if you do have fixes/solutions for the kinds of heroes I mentioned who don’t have “Easy to sub for mana” resources (Like how Sonya would work very easily with such a system) that I think are good… I would be willing to change my mind.

I just haven’t seem them yet. And I sadly don’t think that I will. I would love it if you can prove me wrong!

1 Like
20

If there is a hero that doesn’t go well with this “resource” mechanic, then that hero and your “support” simply wouldn’t be the wisest choice together for your comp, or perhaps it is worth they both not interacting that much depending on the other team. Is really not that difficult. Is like DW… should we make the whole Healers role disappear because DW can’t be healed by them? Should you never pick one just because the other is present?

Hogger uses a type of resource, by the way. Is “Rage”. So that’s that.
But even then, if one particular hero has a type of resource that proves to be so powerful it could break the game, then perhaps the support role heroes couldn’t provide him any help with said resource (again, like the DW example).

Also, how does Malfurion’s Innervate work on Whitemane? You have your answer already to that right there.

[/quote]

That’s fair. Thanks! And I agree, It requires force of will to solve the puzzle. But «a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step», isn’t? :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: