Make sure it’s truly a problem.
Don’t try to change anything just for the sake of change. If you answer with “why not?” to the ppl asking “why?” you’re on the wrong track.
Ask: “could this be intentional?” “Would it destroy a designed weakness/strengths?” “How will it affect the other Heroes?” “How will it affect the players?” “Would that make things needlessly more complicated?” And other questions.
Check some statistics making sure you can use some sort of math to back up your claims. Or at least use citation of some sort.
Come up with a solution for the brought up problem and for nothing else.
Accept criticism and skepticism with an open mind and improve your suggestions based on the feedbacks. (Don’t take anything personally.)
It’s 2 hours of the night for me, i cant sleep because I’m sick, but after reading this thread I feel better, because Karabars made a thing, what will help us to be clever on forums.
Good job, and thank you for your work. I enjoyed it.
Also: Check to see if it has been suggested before and the response.
Use said responses in clarifying and/or improving your suggestion.
If you cannot fix the problems identified the previous time or refute the objections, then don’t post it. As it has already been discussed and you would basically just be restarting an old thread. It would be better to bump said old thread, assuming it hadn’t devolved into raging nonsense.
Also: Be wary of suggesting something just to make it more like another game. HotS is it’s own thing, it’s why people play it rather than the other game. Copying something from somewhere else is fine, just so long as it actually improves the game without costing it it’s uniqueness.
Qqquuuuiiiite some time ago now there was a suggestion that was rather poorly thought out. (No offense meant to that person, but it was poorly thought out.)
His suggestion was: Mana burn. Could it work as a hero mechanic?
In this scenario, what are all the pros and cons of this? Why/why not? What could be a big problem? What would be an obvious problem? Etc.
How would that affect other Heores and the players?
Mana burn is like a twisted Silence. It makes Heroes unable to use their abilities. The main design problem is (and I should try to search for the blue post from the old forums about this), that it’s useless at first (while the Hero still has mana) and overpowered and demolishingly punishing after its effects finally kicks in. With basically no counterplay (Malfurion from lvl 0, Deckard, from lvl 4, Ana from lvl 10, Medivh from lvl 20 can give mana an no one else).
Other con is that how it works on Heroes without mana? Does it burns Fury and Energy as well? What about Heroes with no resources at all?
What’s our goal with an ability like that?
It existed in a completely different game, therefore we should have it?
How about creating something “mechanically” similar, but less literal?
Like an anti-cdr ability (making cd-s longer)? It would counter Ability-reliant Heroes, be it Mages, Tanks or Healers.
Do we want to counter those Heroes? Making them unable to save themselves or others, or deal their dmg which can be countered already differently? Making their teamfight boring, seemingly unfair, cuz they need to wait more secs to do anything with their Heroes, to do their things?
So the main problem and Con is that its effect only exists when it’s “doom’s day” basically. Pros? “I liked it”.
Good discussion is relative. There wasn’t really much.
The op in that thread basically went
But if he had instead done as Karabar’s guide suggest (and what most people with decent education would do), he would have arrived at the conclusion that it’d be a bad idea and wouldn’t fit.
He didn’t even consider that there are heroes without mana in this game or heroes who use different types of energy sources.
If he had rigorously gone through his idea, then he could have presented his idea in a much better way, with all the pros and cons considered, and then asked: How could we make this work?
The purpose of doing all that work is not just to avoid critism, it’s to better present your case and allow everyone who sees it to have more information to work with from the onset allowing them a much deeper and more meaningful discussion to emerge.
Simply saying “Let’s add X. What could go wrong?” about anything that pops into your mind is… kinda a waste of time
I am unsatisfied with this guide and am now thusly compelled to make a guide on making a guide.
I shall now busy myself seeking guidance from a Guide whereby I may henceforth be guided in the guidance required to guide others in attaining the guidance they require to guide others with guidance and thereby complete the cycle of making a guide on making a guide.
First of all, a decent person would not implicate that someone else didn’t have a decent education, just because he didn’t approach a problem in a game the same as a scientist would in the world of academics. That would only do an ego inflated as.
Secondly, sometimes people start a simple idea and want to develop an idea through discussions. Often this is called brainstorming. The OP isn’t obligated to serve a fully analyzed problem and totally fleshed out solution, for it to be worthy for someone to read and discuss. If a stick is shoved so far up ur bottom then you should just ignore those “imperfect” suggestions and move on with no derogatory comment.
Third, if mana burn would be functional in HotS, the best way to test it in theory would be through different views, and the easiest and fastest way to get different views is probably through this forum. Also the devs have a (recent) history of picking the easier road in game design, it’s not excluded that they might have done the same with mana burn back in the day.
All in all, you seem like an arrogant unfullfilled “academic” with no significant contribution to give in his field of expertise, so you have enough time to spend looking down on others in the forum, like the comment I just quoted.
As someone who is in the world of sciences, i thoroughly dislike people like you, who lack modesty, humility and the ability to think outside of their ego enwrapped box.
Decency is irrelevant in assuming a person’s educational level. My point is that it is what a person with a scientific approach would do, when presenting an idea.
Somebody who makes posts that are incredibly ill thought out and hasn’t presented anything worth of value to spark discussion, I will assume does not have a high level education.
Just like how if I see a Hanzo who doesn’t know that he has his jump-trait ability then I would assume that he’s very new to Hanzo. (I met one such guy yesterday in a brawl.)
Also, I used the word ‘most’. Which can mean that there are people with decent education that wouldn’t do it and vice versa.
It is also just refering to that doing it properly is simply what the typical educated person would do.
Isn’t obligated, no.
Just the same that no one is obligated to give to charity or help an old lady with something or whatever the case, but it makes sense to do it and some people would expect you to do it and think less of you if you don’t.
In this case it would make sense if he himself were to flesh out his ideas and analyze it so his idea is presented much better allowing for a better grasp of his idea, the pros and cons of it, if it could work, thus creating a much more meaningful and deep discussion about it from the beginning, rather than the first few posters pointing out the obvious flaws and then the OP gets defensive and starts saying “pfft I’m right about this I’m awesome at this hero so shut up”
It will also make the person presenting the idea seem like a much more sincere and serious person.
I never said that isn’t so.
All we’re saying is to put some thought and work into ones idea you wish to discuss with others.
And I dislike massive hypocrites who speaks of what a decent person should and should not do, and then acts like a massively indecent person.
I like how you pretend to be someone in the world of sciences when you can barely write a paragraph without a line of insults. And how you think that simply presenting an idea that has 0 thought put into it is as valuable as an idea that has been thoroughly analyzed and fleshed out.
Are you that mad that I infer that properly analyzing and thinking an idea through is what most educated people would do?
If you simply just do as some people do, posting every single idea that comes to your mind without a single thought behind it, with the only basis being ‘I feel that I’m right’, you could end up being known as the “idiot no skill troll that has no idea about gamebalance but thinks he does” who then never gets taken by principle, which can result in his actual good ideas and suggestions to be ignored because the other people are tired of his nonsensical illogical ranting.
It is when you are trying to point it out, with no need, except for your ego shinning, like you did. The underlying reason is showing how you yourself are higher then that state.
If something will spark doesn’t only depend on the poster, but also on the readers. If “mana burn” by itself doesn’t give you ideas, then there is a bigger chance that the problem is in you. The best minds had the biggest ideas by seeing the simplest things. You should read up on that.
And that’s your ego right there. But the need to point it out, that shows bigger underlying problems.
So you think less of someone just because someone didn’t put enough effort to work out an idea on the forum? Can’t you see this is proving what i already said about you? There is a big difference between thinking less of an idea and thinking less of the person…
No, if you would read up on psychology, open ideas with as little as can be detail, get the best developed. The more you explain and enclose the idea with rules, the less freedom you give, the more you enclose the how the idea can be developed. This proves your closed box thinking.
This is your point of view, which in my point of view, is terribly wrong. WHen i watch ideas, i watch the idea, not how the person seems to me. The idea and the person i keep separated.
By writting this, i could conclude that your educational level is lower then mine, as you don’t realize that you just mixed subjectivity where only objectivity counts. The only reason I mention this, is because you mentioned it before, and I think such persons deserve no better then what they serve to others.
I’m glad it touched you, i hope you learn something from it. It reflects your previous behavior. I’m someone that believes equivalent exchange makes people more considerate.
First sentence, i never said that nor touched the subject.
Second sentence, yes, inferring that doesn’t touch the idea itself, just the person giving the idea. The only purpose it serves is being condescending, even bordering being malevolent. There is absolutely no other reason to even mention something like that, when the education of that person was never at hand of the discussion
I’m not a politician, so I’m not really concerned how others perceive me. Just what the truth is. And everything I wrote I believe it to be true.
BTW, haven’t posted on this forum for a long while. Your condescending nature motivated me to post
I don’t want to derail the conversation any further, so Good Night.
I just want to hopp back to make two things a bit more clear:
This whole thread (including Narha’s comment) is mostly addressed for ppl who don’t like that ppl aren’t fans of their suggestions. It’s about improving so ppl can get better results and feel better about themselves and their ideas.
You [zlajo] look like someone who’s as arrogant as Narha, but because it’s him and not you, it’s unacceptable. You claim you’re from the scientific field, but your comments here sounds like just needless and unnecessary ad hominem.
Yes, i tend to project people’s bad manners back to them, sometimes soaking myself aswel into them. Your post has good pointers, but by no means standards to devalue others.
Sorry for the derail.
To weigh in, I agree with those people that are frustrated with people being only destructive with ideas of others. The sole state of needing to make a full proof argument ( as instructed by you) to not get shredded by others means the environment isn’t one of objective and good-willed nature that wants to create and improve upon for the greater good, but rather one full of fault seeking hungerbeasts, that are here for their own personal reasons ( just to win a discussion, prove someone wrong or oneself better).
Not all are like that but most probably are, if many feel like it, and the need arose for a guide like this to be written…
Balance suggestions are objective. They’re either good or bad. There are a lot of ppl here, who can notice a good and a bad one, especially since they can check stats and other data and sources to make things more clear.
That’s why a lot of times it’s a bit frustrating for ppl here, that they are the ones, who need to show the posters why they’re objectively wrong, especially when they could reach those data easily for themselves alone.
Plus I’m not sure about you [tho I think I remember you doing it as well] but I’m sure about Hail, that he speaks that “all suggestions should be welcomed”, yet he says negative to those which he dislike.
Just make a suggestion on Valeera, which is a nerf or it changes something he liked about her and see how welcoming he is then.
Every opinion has a right to exist. But not every suggestion worth the effort from any reader at all. There are objectively bad ones. There is a way to make that less common, There is a way how ppl can improve.
But there are ppl who rather ask for acceptence as always. Better stay as we are, cuz that’s “perfect”.
Having a decent education isn’t something so amazing that it’s something worthy boasting about.
I have no idea why you keep infering that me simply implying that presenting an idea scientifically is what an educated person would do.
No, mana burn does not give me any ideas, because I came across the glaring problems of it first; there exists heroes that does not have mana at all.
Heroes aren’t designed around the possibility of being mana burned; some would suffer incredibly from being mana burned, others less so, such as Uther.
Whereas some heroes have incredible mana sustain such as Hanzo.
If Manaburn would have to be a thing, it would have had to be a thing from the beginning.
All this is just repeating my first comment of the manaburn thread, fyi.
Also don’t go pretending that everyone who posts an idea is Isaac Newton for discovering gravity by watching an apple fall.
Or would you say that a person who makes a post, which is pretty much just this:
“Valla AA build needs a rework. i only go q build. aa build sucks.”
To be the work of one of the greatest minds of our century?
Yet you feel like constantly ‘pointing out’ things for me. What a massive hypocrite you are.
And once again I merely point out that presenting an idea with a scientific method is what an educated person typically would do.
Yes I think less of people who care little about others, themselves, or the idea they present.
If you don’t even care to put a little effort into an idea you wish to present, then I think less of you. Since you expect others to do your work for you and you, in the end, do not actually care about the idea at all, since such a person didn’t even care to properly present it.
That’s pretty normal, fyi.
This proves your idiotic thinking because all of that relies on the context of the idea. Some ideas are when started broadly, while suggestions for balance and such become much more profound and useful if some thought has been put into it.
So you equally value two threads on the same topic where one guy put in, say, 3-4 hours of work into analyzing it, fleshing out problems and what not, and the other just posted it the moment it popped into his head?
I can safely say that you’re not very highly educated if so. Because clearly the topic with more work in it is going to be of better quality, both in the OP but also in the resulting discussion.
The whole point of the thread was to try to get some improved quality of threads, especially to certain posters who post incredibly bad ideas with incredibly bad english who then doesn’t get any feedback due to aforementioned reasons makes a thread saying “the forums hates suggestions”
And you started this whole debacle with me because you misunderstood something on your own when you didn’t see the word ‘most’.
The truth is you’re a hypocrite. You make a big post and then say you don’t want to derail anyfurther so goodnight.
And whether you care about how others perceive you is your own thing or the other peoples things, but hten you shouldn’t be surprised if people don’t take you seriously if you constantly make bad threads.
This all happened because there are people who put absolutely 0 thought into their ideas when they post them.
There’s a difference between atleast some work into it and fool-proof ideas. Nobody said it has to be perfect, infallible ideas only, but more that it’d be very nice if some work was put into it.
I think every reader should decide for himself what he should read. I think it is a very unhealthy attitude to let others (or rather called popularity) decide what one should read and what not. The whole point of the header ( title) and the small text box that appears when you hover with your mouse over a post before clicking gives enough info for preliminary filtering.
There is also a big difference between someone just proving you wrong, or honestly searching for applications in your idea. The latter tend to seek solutions alongside the holes they find.
That’s one problem. People tend to reject an idea upon finding a problem instead of trying to refine that 10% of the idea to make the problem better then the existing alternative.
I also don’t think that just one person has to flesh out the whole idea. That’s why it’s called a discussion and not a trial. One person could just drop one brick and brick by brick with every poster a good building might appear.
Because people don’t think like that, is the reason why people with ideas, big or small, worked out or just basic thoughts, are frustrated. And i understand them, and agree with them.
I’ve shown, said and proven what you are. I have nothing more to discus with you. Please refrain from making further interactions.
