While he has the tools to counter Tracer and Tass right now (and I enjoy killing Tracers cus they’re everywhere atm), he is still ultimately very weak hero right now.
He got shafted twice by nexus anomalies. Global movementspeed increase made juking Genji’s stuff easier than before. And recent fort/tower changes now focus the evil doers. THAT’s TWICE SHAFT by core gamemechanic changes!
Now add his consecutive nerfs he has got over the years on top of it - we get a miserable hero who sits at 38% winrate!
Guaranteed damage doesn’t equal “more” damage. Turrets and forts have a pretty slow firing rate for Deflect value unless someone is critically low and then going for the kill (or someone is attacking you at the same time). I still prefer Deflecting on minions for obvious reasons, more chip damage. And even still I don’t wanna Deflect forts/turrets unless it’s absolutely necessary, but it kinda is right now and with every dive I’m pretty much forced to blow my only defensive cooldown that I want to use STRATETICALLY. Dive risk is way higher now for sure, even with all the mobility.
Only 2 of those heroes were complete meme and constant request, one of them is me and probably a few others minus the people who mass downvote any Overwatch discussion on Reddit that doesn’t go under “delete this Overwatch hero”, I’m not getting what’s being said here.
Genji is a character who requires a lot of mechanical knowledge. Of course he’ll feel polarized, because like theoretically Tracer, his counters are hard and rude as heck. It’s like how old Cassia used to be a death knell for AA based picks, especially if you stuttered well. Genji suffers from his counters because they counter the one thing he does: dive for kill secures.
If your going to fight for a good cause. At least use correct information.
New tower changes are BETTER for in-and-out tower divers. The removal of the fort slow means we can get in and get more consistent damage, because our AA/speed is not reduced, and we can get out because the movement speed slow does not let people catch up to us.
Source: level 75 Genji, level 40+ zeratul
If they really want to buff genji, either give AA range back. Or incorporate Shingan into his base kit by making it deal less damage, then make the current shingan talent increase the damage to the point it is now.
I’m much for in favor of the 2nd one, as flat number changes on a dive hero like Genji are risky.
Genji is a hero that shouldn’t be evaluated in a vacuum (although the same can be said for all heroes). A lot of his success or failure really depends on his team, how they can set him up, and how they complement his kit. This is why he can feel incredibly weak in solo queue QM, but incredibly strong in the right comp. If his team has wave clear, boss race, and CC covered, and his tank knows how to keep the enemy team’s focus and create space, Genji can do amazing thing.
I played Tyrael with a Genji on my team this morning.
There’s multiple petitions to rework Genji, but really, shifting some of Genji’s power away from deflect and buffing his damage and Swift Strike in return is the most optimal idea
Who are those other in-and-out divers you’re speaking about? And how are these new tower changes benefiting them?
In theory, but in practice there could be many scenarios where it can go obviously wrong (Garrosh or Uther waiting for you or missing Swift Strike). And if you’re the main target of the fort and turrets, you’re pretty much dead to any little CC they throw at you or quickly forced to escape or use defensive cooldown (while before I could save my Deflect for more opportune times). While true that Genji’s main form of damage comes from auto attacks, I sure as hell wont be taking that risk of staying under enemy structures for long. I hope you’re aware that the turrets and forts hit like a truck right now.
Genji and Zeratul can both execute shorter tower dives. And this thread is about Genji, so he was my main example. As for how those changes benefit them? Thats what the entire next line was about
So I kinda already answered that one.
If your diving under towers against Uther or Garrosh, and you have not been tracking their cooldowns, then you need to learn to track better.
Yes, getting stunned under towers is a death sentence, thats the counterplay, dodging those stuns or waiting them out is part of tower diving.
Autoattacks are just a small bit of extra damage during tower dives, the main kill power during a dive comes from shingan and swift strike.
And yes I am aware towers hit like a truck. As I said, I play mostly dive heroes when I can help it, I’m pretty well-acquainted with tower damage.
I love it when it becomes this cherrypicking quote fiesta. I’m not saying you’re wrong about Genji, but you also didn’t fully explain how is in-and-out turret diving BETTER for him (taking into account the turret damage and enemy composition and positioning and minion positioning). There are so much more factors in play here which make Genji dives even more dangerous than before.
I can describe diving theory as much as you want. Let me get started.
So to begin with: there is a criteria for if you should dive and when. Here are some of the things I think about before I dive.
Is someone under towers low?
is that person low enough I can kill them?
Where are the minion waves right now? Can I deflect them?
Are there other heroes nearby, do they have CC, healing, or anything else to deny me my kill?
If i dive with E, will I be able to get out if I don’t get a reset?
Do I have enough HP to get in AND out?
Is someone or something else tanking or disabling towers?
Based on all of these factors, I choose whether or not its worth it to go for a tower dive.
Some of these criteria have been effected by the new tower changes.
Is someone under towers low? *Is that person low enough I can kill them?
These two remain mostly the same, but because I KNOW the exact areas that all 3 towers will hit me, I know when an Ideal time to deflect would be, if I need it to get the kill.
Basically, under-tower dmg is a bit more consistent, but its not much of a difference.
Where are the minion waves right now? Can I deflect them?
This one has not changed at all. Nothing to add here.
Are there other heroes nearby, do they have CC, healing, or anything else to deny me my kill?
This one has had a shift in power. CC is now much more dangerous under towers then before, but getting stunned in towers was already a death sentence we play around, so its not that much worse. The most dangerous thing is getting deflect interrupted if you use it.
If i dive with E, will I be able to get out if I don’t get a reset?
This is where the tower changes start being very helpful. Beforehand, the slow of towers made it nearly impossible to get out quickly from towers, unless you had your E. If a dive failed, you were eating probably 2-3 additional tower shots, which may or may not be enough to kill you. Now however, you may take a bit more damage per shot, but you get out faster, which means you are taking 1-3 less tower shots then before. This ultimately reduces the damage you take in the event of a failed tower dive.
Adding on to this, one of the biggest risks for Genji and Zeratul while diving, besides CC, was being chased after the kill. No matter how perfect your genji dive was, if you did not get a kill with E, and then buffer E to get out, you were getting hit. Even if you deflected it you were going to get slowed. This meant that ANY person on the enemy team could just walk up to you easily. Now, with new turrets, you are not only the same speed as them, but you are sometimes FASTER then them because of your lvl 1 talent. Which makes escaping towers easier.
Do I have enough HP to get in AND out?
This one follows roughly the same theory as the previous one. You take more damage per shot after a shot or two, but you can get out much faster, which means deflect can block more % of the tower’s total damage. And since tower damage ramps up via armor break, you actually tank a lot more damage per deflect if you wait to use it for the 2nd/3rd shot.
Is someone or something else tanking or disabling towers?
This one is about the exact same as before, If your Yrel is tanking towers for you, or sylvanas disabled towers, its much easier and safer to dive. Simple enough.
I think I went over most things here, but if you feel like I just ignored a point, go ahead and point it out in a clear way and hopefully I won’t miss it again. I’m always glad to talk about dive theory.
38% and holder of the lowerest win rate (or at least in the top 3) for a few years means nothing.
People don’t like genji and honestly aren’t smart enough to play against him so he needs to be trash for the 99% this way people don’t cry themselves to sleep at night.