Fix Zeratul's Basic Attack Build

General Discussion
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Zeratul’s AA Build is not competative and easily overpowered by burst&poke playstyle of Q&W Build.
Shadow Assault was underperforming as Heroic so lets make it an ordinary talent like Seeker or Wormhole to enable AA Build of Zeratul:
Replace Shadow Assault over Warp Skirmisher Talent at level 7.
Replace Nerazim Fury over Nexus Blades Talent at level 20.
Use Shadow Assault as a tool of AA based engage. Notice that he will not have wormhole or seeker additional to Shadow Assault, Shadow Assault itself will be the tool of engage.Thus,
Lower the cooldown of it from 45 to 20 so there will be less regret if you disengage quickly regarding to cooldown of it. Give %15 armor to him for 2 sec after activating it to get a value from AA.

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Good idea, giving him an engage for the auto attack build will be great, and replace the attack speed granted by Old Shadow assault by the armor so it won’t be redundant with level 4 talent that increases the attack speed.

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Appreciate your support, I really miss Shadow Assault and wanna play Zeratul with AA like in the StarCraft Campaigns.

Shadow Assault with BroodWar Skin of Zeratul would be Legendary!

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LOL did this topic get suggested to me …because of my avatar!? All of our post history is wiped and even before this change I really never posted too much in your topics. So even if it was getting data from before I wouldn’t think there would be enough there to determine that I’m interested in anything Zeratul, posted by you.
On topic
So I tried out his AA build for the first time in forever, it don’t feel good thats for sure there’s just too many hero in game that are red lights for him to just be in someone’s face long enough to get anything out of going full AA.

That kind of build is for a playstle that can not happen in most games unless you are against headless chickens. I do like the ideal of having defensive talents coming online sooner than level 13. His AA build feels like it’s for a bruiser more than an ambusher, i guess at 20 he pretty much becomes that if you go for Shadow Mending. Frankly they would very much have to nerf his Q build to the absolute ground before allowing his AA build to a threat.

I personally wouldn’t want that but I’d adapt if they did end up doing it but for now I kind of like this veriant on the Q build I’ve been doing. Just replacing Worm with Warp Skirmisher and I get to do some nasty AA damage to my targets and it allows me to use Void and not cut into my damage as bad for not taking Might. Taking Void Prison makes up for the lack of engae Wormhole and Seeker would’ve given.
I get tired of the full Q build myself but that small change lets me get my AA fix without being crushed by any team that knows what they are doing :rofl:

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I want to see Zeratul more then e+q+w+e hero.
For example Tass, even when he’s in bad spot, has a lot of builds, when Zeratul has 1 playable.
Think about it. :thinking:

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Idk how many times you’ll create “Zeratul AA threads” but I believe there’s been 2 or 3 in the past couple months on the old forum and instantly a new one here.

Read the post I gave you in the above link and you’ll understand why Zeratul’s AA isn’t working and why there’s no simple “fix” to it.
To make his AA viable he needs to be durable, that would be an indirect buff to Q and W making them better which still pushes away his AA build.

You cannot request every hero to be playable identically as they did in their original franchise. Artanis doesn’t have a revive passive nor is Maiev cappable to summon an avatar to raise every single fallen minion, mercenary or monster into an invulnerable caster to damage her enemies. The reason for this is because it doesn’t fit inside a MOBA.

The only way to make Zeratul’s AA build viable is to rework all their talents, give them unique multiclass benefits simillar to when Varian picks his heroic alternative which gives his AA specific talents better atk speed and HP. This has to not be pickable with his Q or W talents nor be baseline as it’d still make his other builds better because Zeratul functions better coherently within the game as a caster.
Reintroducing the tiny charge into Darkness Descends (AKA Shadow Assault) won’t make it viable. It will still be magnitudes worse than the Q build and for any decently skilled Zeratul it’ll be worse than W.

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To make his AA viable he needs to be durable, that would be an indirect buff to Q and W making them better which still pushes away his AA build.

Pretty much why I said they would have to trash his Q build. Sadly we’d be back to only having one build in the end anyway it doesn’t seem like there’s a real point to sac one for the other.

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Agreed.

While this would be brainstorming I think a better solution to Zeratul’s 1 build dimension is revert W/combo slash nerfs to an extent because the build itself isn’t unhealthy it’s just underperforming and create a seperate build after that could revolve around Vorpal Blade but enhance it better at later talents and not just Warp Skirmisher.

It’s kinda like Sudden Vengeance on Maiev. The talent itself has no synergies at all with the rest of the kit/talent options that it causes it to be completely useless. So by creating this talent Maiev needs incentive to want to sacrifice her mobility to nuke tanks in addition to sacrifice waveclear from Blade Dance. Currently there’s no benefit to taking Sudden Vengeance over Blade Dance because it has no level 16 synergy.

That’s a bit offtopic but it was just to compare it to a simillar case. The general idea of an AA focused build on Zeratul without buffing his durability could be to add Warp Skirmisher talents at later levels (especially 16) that specifically enhances it to let him teleport either more freely or something like a damage increase to the target specifically teleported to using Vorpal Blade.
Let’s say you use Vorpal Blade and for the next 3 seconds your target takes bonus damage from the next 3 sources (eg. W>Q>AA) or increases the damage of your Q and W by 20% and your E to enhance your next auto by 20%.

This is just an idea but if you’d add a talent like that it’d incentivize a Warp Skirmisher build that doesn’t have an impact on his other talent options while also breathing life into different playstyles from the character.

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Skychase and Laparo.

My solution works. %10-15 armor after activating Shadow Assault for 2 seconds May not be enough for him to stay alive.

Solution is simple.:
Why do we play Q Build? Because of safety, Zeratul cant stand in the fight.

Why do we empower his Q in Wormhole playstyle? Because he cant stay in the fight long enough to deal good amount of AA damage.

So what you have to do is increasing Zeratul’s Base Health by %15 or so. That will reduce the safety necessity of Q Build. Additionally, %15 Armor for 2 or more seconds when Shadow Assault is activated will allow him to get value from AA and respectively low cooldown(20 sec) will be less punishing than the time when Shadow Assault was a heroic with 45 sec cooldown.

Problem is solved.

By the way:

Man, I don’t care.

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Any amount of armor value on Darkness Descends, even the charge, won’t matter within reasonable terms. That is 10-25%. It’s too low, and he won’t get anything above for obvious reasons.

Q build is played because it’s the safest, easiest and most importantly it’s reliable. Q build has next to no failure rate at the expense of being very predictable. W build could oneshot someone if you play perfectly but the margin for error is very high. W build also wants MotN where as Cleave works better with VP.

Increasing Zeratul’s base HP will only indirectly buff Q and W builds. It helps AA but it helps the other builds even more by allowing for more mistakes. The value of another round of AA’s (let’s say 3) won’t compare to a round of basic abilities, especially when you factor in Void Slash+Shadow Mending or Sentenced to Death+Rewind.

So with this in mind the problem is not solved. Your solutions won’t make AA Zeratul compete with Q or W because you suggest a baseline buff. This is why I said the problem is trickier to fix than just reintroduce the tiny charge into Darkness Descends because his problems lies in the fact that his AA talents don’t work as well together as his caster talents, just like I described with Maiev. Lack of meaningful synergies.

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Well you care enough to let me know that you don’t lol
The fact that you are pretty much the only one who ever post about Zeratul makes me think no one really cares about him anymore. In his case no news is good news right?

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Caring enough to tell you is not enough to care “you”.
Let you know? No, It is Let the Forum know.

  1. Whatever you do with the Q Build, you have only 3 seconds to deal any damage, and you have to return to the blink point. So, no matter how slightly change his HP, you return to your initial position which makes you put out of fight, which makes you not get good value from Basic Attacks with respect to non-increased HP. And you have no Chase Speed or AA Speed. So, that value of HP will not be spent on Auto Attacks.

  2. However, with AA Build, you will have to spend all of your baseline HP, which includes the increased baseline Health Points. With Attack Speed + Chase Speed you will get the best value from the baseline HP increase.

  3. W Build can use some buffs also, in that regard, I wouldn’t mind the baseline HP increase. Its AA speed + chase speed is low with respect to the AA Build. It won’t increase the damage output much, reasoning the fact that W Build is burst damage build.

  4. Notice that HP increase gets its best value from and works best with sustain AA damage dealers with high speed, which will be seen in AA Zeratul Build.

  5. That’s also exactly why Tassadar(shielding & armoring & increasing HP for 4 sec) is considered to be better with Tracer & such. And it is only way that Tassadar is being used in HGC, that means that health increase works!

  6. Warriors like Artanis and Varian are the best examples for getting value from AA by increasing the in health or shielding. They have chase also! Like ILLIDAN or VALLA!

The game itself proves me right.

7. In terms of Chasing Speed and AA Speed:
AA Build Zeratul >> W Build Zeratul >> Q Build Zeratul
It’s the pure reason why increase in base health will empower AA Build of Zeratul the most. At level 13 Mending Stikes will get its best value also!

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That is not really how realistic terms works at all.

Let’s say you run out at level 13 and just chase someone by AAing them at all times, sure you’ll get 1 or 2 more autos off but you still won’t kill anyone. However you got 2 more autos where as your Q and W were still on CD = higher value, technically.

What is actually gonna happen is that people will continue to play Q build and in niche cases W build with a baseline HP increase because it allows for more mistakes. You don’t need as much healing, you will escape at lower health more often, you can stick in fights for longer with my example of waiting for another rounds of CD’s > better than AA’s.

A baseline HP buffs works for AA heroes like Artanis or Illidan because they are designed entirely around doing AA damage. Zeratul isn’t - He’s a melee caster. Artanis gets benefits off shields by autoattacking, he has a basic ability enhancing his AA output. Illidan gets overall CDR and sustain from AA’s. Zeratul gains nothing for his AA build from a baseline HP buff because he isn’t an autoattacker.

So I hope I’ve made myself very clear now. The problem isn’t as simple as just buffing the baseline numbers but rather to make the design work coherently.

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You just don’t accept the fact that Builds can change heroes completely. Man your arguement is wrong ! :

Varian is proving my point. Besides Varian being a multiclass hero, he can change into AA assasin = Twin Blades or Burst Assasin = Colossus Smash by only choosing the Build you want to use.

Choosing to be Burst Attacker or Auto Attacker is not changing the class. It is a simple build treatment which Zeratul can have by change of Build, which can be similar or different treatment.

What you don’t understand is this, simple and pure:

If there is a Build put into a hero’s kit, it must at least perform good.

Like it or not, use it or not, want it or not;
Zeratul has an AA Build, which is put by Blizzard, and there is certain way to make him a melee attacker, which is my way.

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Your first point about Q build, you only have 3 seconds if you pick wormhole and who says you have to reactivate to bounce back before the 3 seconds are up? With me I don’t always pick WH with the Q build so I’m sure there are others that don’t do it either. If he’s given enough HP to just jump in a teamfight all willy-nilly and stay on someone to AA then he still has enough to willy-nilly with his Q build.
if you’re good you can take seeker and get your speed boost. Don’t forget either build works well with either ult, one isn’t exclusive to the other I can see the domino effect can you?

What Laparo is saying is, the way Zeratul is designed it pigeon holds him to one build or he’d be super opessive. Buffing his baseline stats is going to buff his everything. We’d need to break him fully down and rebuild him before he’s allowed to have multiple builds and not be the monster he pretty much already is.

I like that you are brainstorming on how to fix this so good on you! I feel the problems lie in tier 4, tier 16 and 20, none of his AA talents give me incentive to pick them over Q or even W. I wouldn’t bother with tier 1, 7 ,10 and 13 because those are the tiers where the builds can be mixed and matched buffing and changing talents at those points are dangerous.

Tier 16 is a problem because this is where you can also mix and match builds but the one pick for the AA build isn’t as good as the other two and it’s pretty much the same for 20

Are you starting see how truly difficult this is for Zera? 6 out of the 7 tiers can allow for insane hybrid building which could trump both full Q and full AA builds.

So are you willing to have his whole kit scrubbed to be rebuild to something that may or may not even fit your fantasy of him or are you willing to let his one build die over the other?
Either of these choices are asking for him to be nerfed and that’s “at best” you can ask for because “at worst” if the remake makes him even stronger get ready for knee jerk chain nerfs til he’s nothing like you want him to be and nothing like what is now.

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Skychase has an excellent post that adding anything else feels redundant, but I feel obligated to respond to something above.

Just because a hero has talent options that provides a different playstyle doesn’t make it “good” nor is it an obligation for it to do so. If this was the case we would see literally every hero having an evenly divided spread of all talents which will never happen. The reality is that certain aspects of a character will always perform better than others and typically heroes tends to be picked on maps/in drafts where their strongest build works the best.

Secondly you’re comparing Zeratul to Varian. Have you forgotten that Varian gains specific benefits depending on of he takes Colossus or Twin Blades? Colossus gives him enormous basic attack damage to be playable as a burst caster, where as his Twin Blades gives him enormous attack speed to be playable as a sustained damage dealer. Do you see the difference here?

Zeratul has no benefits whatsoever like Varian does. This is exactly why I suggested to tie specific bonuses into Warp Skirmisher to explain how your dream build could come true. The solution isn’t baseline buffs but talent specifc adjustments.

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You guys either don’t read what I wrote properly, or don’t understand what is written.

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Ok so lets say they did change level 7 to have Shadow Assault with a 15% armor bonus to it what’s stopping me from picking Rending Cleave at level 4? Then later on most of the time by that level players tend to be pretty clumped up more often than not so you will get crazy value out of Void Slash, even more so with a 15% armor boost on top of whatever you picked at 13.

Is that not a bit too much to add to the Q build just to have the choice to play AA and get away with it at any level of play?
Not going to lie, if they did that I would abuse the ever loving heck out of it and watch the forums explode as I sit back and eat :popcorn:
Or do we make all Zeratul players take an oath to not pick any Q talents if they are building for auto attack and vice versa :angel:

Am I still not understanding or what?

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No, you are the one who doesn’t understand.

To tackle a problem you solve it at it’s core, not create bandaid fix that is abuseable by alternative methods.

Comparing it to a character with very specific talent benefits that is unique to said character is a poor argument because it’s not applicable.

Instead of getting passive-aggressive towards us both here and in other threads while we actually try to have a constructive discussion you could disprove us on how your arguments would work fine in your mind.

We’ve said that making baseline changes won’t make AA any better because it’ll buff Q and W which are already superior builds than AA in the first place, so how do you propose to change AA into a better build if it isn’t which we believe to be talent specific?

Creating multiple threads that only says “buff Zeratul, fix AA build” with no constructive suggestions is completely pointless. Zeratul’s baseline kit is very balanced, it’s his talents that aren’t. Those are 2 seperate issues.

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Thank you Laparo, I admit I get a bit jealous when I see how relatively peaceful the Artanis threads tend to go. I’m just this single forum mother here and you are like the friendly neighbor coming over to help set my rebellious teenage fourm son straight

I think Tauri was on the right track when mentioning changing talents but you can’t just blindly change things and buff them on any ol’ tier because on just about every tier the talents are interchangeable with either builds.
Again what are we not understanding?

Me: “Honey, you got to get your life together, what’s wrong? Explain to me”
Tauri: “YOU JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND MOM!” (slams door in my face)
Me: (with a look of disheveled defeat sighs out) “Well that could have gone better”

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